Mixing Wing Chun with a grappling style?

[JPinAZ]

I don't really care whether someone who does fantasy fu agrees with me or not.

Semantics. "Grappling" is maintaining sustained contact with an opponent. Naturally it does involve holding/seizing but there are also other aspects (like pressing, spreading, jerking, etc.). And there are varying degrees of control. To fully control someone for anything other than a very brief period of time, you must grab them. Should you ever learn WCK, you'll see this is true.

All of this is nonsense. And, I can tell by your description that you think the objective of the lop sao exercise is to strike the opponent. It's not.

Chi sao is grappling with striking. Sustained contact is grappling. There are many different ways to maintain sustained contact. Chi sao isn't a "moment", it is an artificial, unrealistic exercise.

Hahaha, still have your panties on too tight I see!

Whatever you think you know about me doesn't change the fact that you only have a surface level understanding of WCK at best. And don't act like you know what 'chi sau' is. One minute you are saying Chi Sau is "grappling with striking", then you are saying it's an "artificial, unrealistic excersize". Are you saying when someone controls and hits you, it's not realistic?

BTW dumb a$$, I was talking about a lap sau technique, not some "lop sau excersize". That's why I used the word 'technique'. Didn't they teach you to read in law school? Maybe you need those Hooked on Phonics books like your friend Hendrik..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not true, sustained arm to arm contact is called bridging. It's a hallmark of most Chinese martial arts, you should try to learn one sometime.

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Bridging is not SUSTAINED anything, that is a very rudimentary view of bridging.
Contact is bridging, but it doesn't need, nor should it be(typically), sustained.
You can even bridge with NO contact.

[monji112000]

So how well does your chi sau / lop sau "grappling" work against BJJ black belts?

just to play devils advocate, I train with a Brown belt who uses "chi sao", and has picked it up on his own. He uses it for grip fighting and setting things up. I one day asked him what exactly he was doing and he told me he watches "wing chun sticky hands". He has a better bong sao(and understanding of it) then I would say most wing chun people. Its pretty cool some of the stuff he does. He does allot of redirects into things like arm drags ect.. I havn't really tried allot of that stuff its over my head.. but its a great idea i'm going to add to my game.

stuff that I see allot is bong sao and tan sao redirecting and fook sao. I use gua sao allot andlop sao

I use chi sao ideas and wing chun ideas all the time when I roll. I roll with black belts, brown belts, purples, blues, and whites. I'm sure if we would discuss what I mean by ideas we would have a very different view.

[Eric_H]

Bridging is not SUSTAINED anything, that is a very rudimentary view of bridging.
Contact is bridging, but it doesn't need, nor should it be(typically), sustained.
You can even bridge with NO contact.

Yes, bridging may also interchangeably used with the strategy of setup (bai jong) intercepting (jeet kiu). What's your point?

Since the discussion is about chi sao, chi sao is bridging, not grappling as is the point i was refuting.

[vingtsunplaya]

Semantics are a real b!tch huh? Wouldn't it be nice if we could all meet up and really see who has kung fu? Chi Sau? The ability to speak engish?

I guess my point is, if you are going to get on a FORUM and talk $heit, you should probably be CLEAR about what you are talking about. One second some of you are talking about chi sau, the next yer talking about grappling, then the next you are talking abou "fantasy fu".

The original question had to do with combining WC with grappling. In my opinion, as someone said earlier, it is good to have a working knowledge about how some butt licker is going to try to get you to the ground, but if you are a WC guy, then you hit him as he bends down to start playing with your genitals. You hit him right in the face. Hard.

[AdrianK]

but if you are a WC guy, then you hit him as he bends down to start playing with your genitals. You hit him right in the face. Hard.

You forgot to include the rest of how this plays out. After you hit him in the face hard, he deals with getting hit and continues to grab your legs and slam you on your back, then force-feeds you some knuckle-sandwiches.

The whole strike-defense to a shoot is about the stupidest ****ing idea out there, unless the guy you're fighting is 120lb emo kid. This has been proven time and again in MMA. Hitting a guy shooting at you DOESNT STOP THEM. And fights aren't won by single strikes.

[t_niehoff]

Hahaha, still have your panties on too tight I see!

No, I just don't care about the "HFY perspective" -- which I think is just piles of Garrett Gee's theory (the sh1t that it is) on top of TWC.

Whatever you think you know about me doesn't change the fact that you only have a surface level understanding of WCK at best. And don't act like you know what 'chi sau' is. One minute you are saying Chi Sau is "grappling with striking", then you are saying it's an "artificial, unrealistic excersize". Are you saying when someone controls and hits you, it's not realistic?

The drill is an unrealistic exercise. Read the **** thread and get someone with half a brain (outside of HFY) to help you, and you might understand what I mean. That the drill is unrealistic doesn't affect what you are drilling/exercising.

BTW dumb a$$, I was talking about a lap sau technique, not some "lop sau excersize". That's why I used the word 'technique'. Didn't they teach you to read in law school? Maybe you need those Hooked on Phonics books like your friend Hendrik..

I guess you don't practice the lop sao technique in the lop sao drill.

[t_niehoff]

Not true, sustained arm to arm contact is called bridging. It's a hallmark of most Chinese martial arts, you should try to learn one sometime.

Sustained arm contact is just ONE way to creat a bridge. A bridge is any structure that connects me to my opponent.

To a degree you are right, Lop Sao isn't about "hitting" it's about controlling facing and re-establishing your own. As WCK is a striking art, once you establish proper range and facing, you should hit. So from another point it is about hitting, it always is....

WCK's method is to control while striking. It is the control that provides our safety and sets up the striking. The notion that "once you establish proper range and facing, you should hit" won't stop himfrom hitting you back (and your opponent can change facing in a split second as he hits). Saying "WCK is a striking art" is to miss the most important aspect of WCK, the control. It's like saying that GNP is a "striking approach". Sure, but it is the control on the ground that makes GNP work Just like it is the control that makes WCK work.

[Eric_H]

Sustained arm contact is just ONE way to creat a bridge. A bridge is any structure that connects me to my opponent.

Yeah, i just said that in my post above.

WCK's method is to control while striking. It is the control that provides our safety and sets up the striking. The notion that "once you establish proper range and facing, you should hit" won't stop himfrom hitting you back (and your opponent can change facing in a split second as he hits). Saying "WCK is a striking art" is to miss the most important aspect of WCK, the control. It's like saying that GNP is a "striking approach". Sure, but it is the control on the ground that makes GNP work Just like it is the control that makes WCK work.

So your point is to control the person before you hit. That isn't any different from establishing proper range and facing, those are what give you the control.

That still doesn't mean that chi sao = grappling as you said before.

[Yoshiyahu]

Hear is a realistic drill.

There was this hood girl right. She asked me about my Art...I said I train Wing Chun. She said what is that. I told her a little she said that stuff sounds like something for people who can't fight...She asked can I use it...I said sure. I told her to hit me as hard as she could in my chest. She threw punch but it was way out of range it didn't even make contact with my guards. So I said listen really hit me. She was like don't hit back okay...I assured her...So What I did so she could know how to punch was put my hands behind my back an let her get a free hit with out me defending...So she hit me as hard as she could in my chest and stomach before I could say okay not pun....ch. I just use my breath to absorb it. Then I said okay again...So she threw her hard punch and it was kinda of low so I bong sau. Since she was trying to wallop me again upon impact she hurt her arm with my bong sau deflecting her force she drop to her knees. An was like what the f*** was that man your arms feel like metal or something...

An then again at a Tai Chi class. I told this big huge guy...he is like 6'8" are something I am 5'8" I told him to throw a round house. He threw a low one. I told him to throw it higher. I high low gan sau his left leg two or three times. He switch legs. An I did the same to his right leg. He said after about three times of thats enough and shook his leg off. He never said how my arms felt. But when he stop firing his hard hits I knew.

Later I had him throw random punches..So I could defend against it. He typically only threw punches with his right. So it was more like a drill rather in realistic.
So I had to coach him to really make contact with me. He kept pulling his punches and holding it back. So I grap his fist an pulled it to my chest said stop the punch here. So he threw a punch a couple more times the guy I guess was afraid to hit me in the chest or something. Anyway When he was ready an did hit my chest then I started defending. When Intercepted his guards he felt his balance go. I told him to hit harder. Like he was trying to knock me over with his punch. When he did that i bil sau his arm. It must felt like a cut to his arm because then he switch up to the left. An then we had a little exchange. I showed him jum sau when he punch low. He was surprise that it stung his arm so much.


Also another time my Sihing and I were doing Chum Kiu. We were comparing Yip Man's CK to that of Yuen Kay San CK. anyway some young teens came by an asked does that stuff work. My Sihing said oh come on throw some punches. The big guy asked him if he was going to hit him back...He said no. So the guy threw his punches. My Sihing simply pak sau continously. The young guy didnt land a blow.

So these are realistic drills. Practice your techniques with different people. The best way to get random challenges is to practice at a park or somewhere public someone will eventually come over an start asking questions. An wonder if it really works.

We should try to practice realistic drills with one another an others. Try different things. For instance drill one...

1.Work on trapping. (Have your opponent fire punches at you while you attempt to trap and hit him).

2.Work on defense against kicks(Have your partner fire random hard kicks while you defend).

3.Work on accuracy and timing(Pick one place to hit your partner be it the left cheek or middle of the chest. While they throw punches and kicks at you hard).

4.Work on Deflecting hard attacks by defending and evading only.

These are realistic drills they hard and you don't know whats coming.

[Yoshiyahu]

Sustained arm contact is just ONE way to creat a bridge. A bridge is any structure that connects me to my opponent.



WCK's method is to control while striking. It is the control that provides our safety and sets up the striking. The notion that "once you establish proper range and facing, you should hit" won't stop himfrom hitting you back (and your opponent can change facing in a split second as he hits). Saying "WCK is a striking art" is to miss the most important aspect of WCK, the control. It's like saying that GNP is a "striking approach". Sure, but it is the control on the ground that makes GNP work Just like it is the control that makes WCK work.

D*** you Niehoff I hate when I have to agree with you...wow...you are so right...

Yeah, i just said that in my post above.




So your point is to control the person before you hit. That isn't any different from establishing proper range and facing, those are what give you the control.

That still doesn't mean that chi sao = grappling as you said before.

What is the meaning of grappling????

Also is all grappling done on the ground???

[anerlich]

Also is all grappling done on the ground???

I guess it could happen in mid-air (two guys fighting over a parachute, how's that for incentive?) or underwater. Usually on the ground, though.

You can grapple standing up, which is what I think you were alluding to.

[anerlich]

Realistic drills

Seldom has a post been more inappropriately titled.

[duende]

No, I just don't care about the "HFY perspective" -- which I think is just piles of Garrett Gee's theory (the sh1t that it is) on top of TWC.

This is out of line Terrence and you know it. YOU want to back this statement up?? Come to San Francisco, and I will personally take you for a walk.

Don't think for one second you can hide behind all your other KF brother's achievements!

As for your TWC nonsense, it has not only been discussed and debated to death, but anyone who really cared about it would actually take the time to come see for themselves.

Like the multitudes of WC'rs from other schools who already have.

YOU on the other hand just talk SH1T. And hide from potential sparring partners and tell them instead to go train MUAY THAI.

Get real Terrence. Life is too short for this crap.

You hate HFY. We get it. Stop your beatchin, and frickin' put us on your ignore list already.




As for this thread. My opinion is that WC does contain stand-up grappling. As in Kum Na/Chi Na. But it's a grappling that is alive and flowing by utilizing what we refer to as CONTACT CONTROL, and not actual dead hand fully committed grappling.

This is the core difference between anti-grappling, and counter grappling.

For more info read:

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346

As for mixing in grappling with WC. I believe you can mix in whatever you like. Once you understand WC's core body mechanics, to varying degrees, any outside technique and applications can be incorporated successfully.

However I do not think I'd ever go to a WC school that is trying also to be a MMA school to learn Jiu Jitsu. I'd rather just go straight to the source and learn the real deal. But hey... that's just me.

[duende]

You forgot to include the rest of how this plays out. After you hit him in the face hard, he deals with getting hit and continues to grab your legs and slam you on your back, then force-feeds you some knuckle-sandwiches.

The whole strike-defense to a shoot is about the stupidest ****ing idea out there, unless the guy you're fighting is 120lb emo kid. This has been proven time and again in MMA. Hitting a guy shooting at you DOESNT STOP THEM. And fights aren't won by single strikes.

Exactly. This is what we call sharp shooting, and may work if the stars are aligned properly and you just happened to deliver one of your best most powerful punches ever etc...

However I do believe that Wing Chun has it's own equivalent of a "sprawl" type body mechanic. One that uses footwork positioning and range over fully committed leaning. Not to mention, the strike itself can be the bridge/point of contact.