Why chi sau?

[LSWCTN1]

please no bickering on this thread!

lets hear other people's opinions on it and what it is to them

I wonder why it is called 'chi sao' (sticky hands) and not 'kui sau' (bridge hands). as i understand it our chis sau is not a sticky hand exercise whatsoever. its a bridge training exercise

i will elaborate, but i want to hear other peoples opinions on this too

[AdrianK]

Bridge hands implies a desire to bridge.

Sticky Hands implies a desire to stick, implying the bridging is already a constant of the exercise.

At least thats my interpretation of it. The name doesn't really matter though, as chi sao has several other variable applications, which is why bridge hands wouldn't fit perfectly either. But Chi Sao sure sounds a hell of a lot better than "Exercise for training close-range fighting"

[-木叶-]

Kiu Sao is a name for your arms, referring to 桥手 in Chinese.

Chi Sao is a name describing an action, when 2 hands stick together.

[LSWCTN1]

Bridge hands implies a desire to bridge.

Sticky Hands implies a desire to stick, implying the bridging is already a constant of the exercise.

At least thats my interpretation of it. The name doesn't really matter though, as chi sao has several other variable applications, which is why bridge hands wouldn't fit perfectly either. But Chi Sao sure sounds a hell of a lot better than "Exercise for training close-range fighting"

ok, maybe i should have said 'training the bridge hands' to me sticking is pretty much chasing hands

the way we are taught chi sau, as i understand it, is that the whole exercise is about displacement (my words, not my instructors). its about the displacement of their energy, the displacement of their structure, of their force, and of their bridges (to create an opening)

We don’t do chi sao per-sé, more of what I would call kiu sau. Basically we are fed techniques to find the holes and use them. The better we are the faster and more ingrained it becomes – when we practice with other lineages who don’t practise how we do we will luk sao holding our structure until we feel or create the gap.

Much more like common chi sao, but it’s not sticky hands though it’s a pushing bridges training I feel. We don’t deliberately try to stick at all we repel and deflect and search for or create an opening

is this how others practise their chi sao?

[t_niehoff]

please no bickering on this thread!

lets hear other people's opinions on it and what it is to them

I wonder why it is called 'chi sao' (sticky hands) and not 'kui sau' (bridge hands). as i understand it our chis sau is not a sticky hand exercise whatsoever. its a bridge training exercise

i will elaborate, but i want to hear other peoples opinions on this too

As I see it, WCK is what you could call a"dirty-clinch" boxing style. By "clinch" I mean sustained contact (sticking). Chi sao is a learning platform/exercise where we can learn and practice in an unrealistic way certain contact skills. Chi sao is like the training wheels when you learn to ride a bike.

[LSWCTN1]

As I see it, WCK is what you could call a"dirty-clinch" boxing style. By "clinch" I mean sustained contact (sticking). Chi sao is a learning platform/exercise where we can learn and practice in an unrealistic way certain contact skills. Chi sao is like the training wheels when you learn to ride a bike.

that sounds similar to how i see my particular style of wc (athough not all wc i have seen emphasis/values this). My instrutor 'smothers' you, constantly preventing you from attacking him when practising gwoh sau. the idea we learn is to close down all the options, which of course includes taking the space etc

but still, chi sau itself, I dont see as being a 'sticky' exercise. i guess in a way it is a very up close and personal gwoh sau?

do any of you deliberately try to stick, and if so what benefit to your training do you feel this brings?

[t_niehoff]

that sounds similar to how i see my particular style of wc (athough not all wc i have seen emphasis/values this). My instrutor 'smothers' you, constantly preventing you from attacking him when practising gwoh sau. the idea we learn is to close down all the options, which of course includes taking the space etc

but still, chi sau itself, I dont see as being a 'sticky' exercise. i guess in a way it is a very up close and personal gwoh sau?

do any of you deliberately try to stick, and if so what benefit to your training do you feel this brings?

Chi sao is just an exercise to learn these various "elements" but is not realistic, i.e., it does not reflect what really goes on in fighting. It just gives you a platform to learn/practice those "elements" in a nonfighting environment so that you can focus on them without needing to deal with all the other things that come in with fighting. Gwoh sao isn't realistic either, it is just a more free-flowing way of doing the chi sao drill/exercise. Chi sao and gwoh sao won't and can't teach you how to really use those elements - or contact skills - in fighting. Only fighting (dealing with a genuinely resisting opponent who is using high levels of physical force against you) can teach you that or develop those chi sao contact skills into fighting skills. To put it another way, chi sao and gwoh sao is beginner-level WCK.

[Violent Designs]

What is gwoh sao? Never heard if it, if there are some videos or if you can go into a bit of detail I would appreciate it.

Honest question I am not from a WCK background.

Thanks

[-木叶-]

What is gwoh sao? Never heard if it, if there are some videos or if you can go into a bit of detail I would appreciate it.

Honest question I am not from a WCK background.

Thanks

Gwoh Sao translating literally is crossing hands, but it means sparring in
chinese, "过手".

In Wing Chun, it starts with chi sao, then slowly each partner will try to look for
moves and openings to execute on their partner.

[TenTigers]

two things-
one-Terrence-the training wheels analogy is priceless.
two-what is the difference between gor-sao (gwoh-sao) and Gong-Sau?

[Vajramusti]

Without some hands on showing-not pictures or videos- chi sao cannot be sensibly discussed
in one up manship laced forums. Chi sao is done in different ways in different lineages in vastly varying quality. It's an important bridge to real action if you are using wing chun ... and you develop lots of skills( the list is huge) if you practice it right and well.

And- no thanks- I don't care to discuss the silly and inaccurate training wheel or swimming on dry land analogies. And, I know I know some just do san sik, or limited versions of chi sao or no chi sao at all. Onwards through the forum fog.

joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

. Chi sao is done in different ways in different lineages in vastly varying quality. It's an important bridge to real action if you are using wing chun ... and you develop lots of skills( the list is huge) if you practice it right and well.

Yes, you are "using wing chun" tools in chi sao, but the problem is that you are not using them in a realistic environment, i.e., under fighting conditions. Your partner in chi sao or gwoh sao is not behaving like someone who is fighting you; he is instead trying to play chi sao with you. So, no matter how you do chi sao, it remains an unrealistic exercise.

This is why chi sao will permit you to learn and develop certain contact skills -- and why it is useful as such. By taking out many of the "elements" of fighting, chi sao permits you to focus on certain things without needing to deal with additional fighting elements. And, that's also precisely why chi sao cannot make those chi sao skills fighting skills. Chi sao doesn't and can't teach you HOW to use WCK in fighting. Only fighting can teach you that.

That's why I like the training wheels analogy -- the training wheels permit you to learn and practice bike-riding skills (steering, peddling, etc.) but in an unrealistic (since you can't fall off and so don't need to be concerned with that) representation of bicycle riding. To learn and develop those things into genuine bike riding skills requires you take off the training wheels and really ride the bike.

[dirtyrat]

Great thread. I had studied a couple different kung fu systems before taking up wing chun. While training it had occurred to me based on my previous experience that chi sao was not really necessary to learn fighting applications. There were times that I wish we wasn't focus so much on chi sao.

[t_niehoff]

two things-
one-Terrence-the training wheels analogy is priceless.
two-what is the difference between gor-sao (gwoh-sao) and Gong-Sau?

Thanks. I took that analogy from Nick Forrer, a fine WCK practitioner.

My understanding is the gor sao is essentailly freely applied chi sao, whereas gong sao is essentially sparring (usually in a "challenge" context).

[HumbleWCGuy]

please no bickering on this thread!

lets hear other people's opinions on it and what it is to them

I wonder why it is called 'chi sao' (sticky hands) and not 'kui sau' (bridge hands). as i understand it our chis sau is not a sticky hand exercise whatsoever. its a bridge training exercise

i will elaborate, but i want to hear other peoples opinions on this too

A waste of time. My school almost exclusively practices out of movement from an on guard position.