Why chi sau?

[k gledhill]

speaking of new videos ..

www.philippbayer.com has 3 new ones up..chi-sao in them too...

[grasshopper 2.0]

haha, my post does not take the position that i have to see video evidence. my argument is questioning the validity of the question for evidence, itself.

Yea but seeing a video doesn't always prove skill. Some will believe that the video is fantasy or rehersed and doubt your skill. Others will see your video and doubt your ability due to your structure or the way it looks when various techniques are applied.

[Yoshiyahu]

haha, my post does not take the position that i have to see video evidence. my argument is questioning the validity of the question for evidence, itself.

i agree with you.

[k gledhill]

Clarifying the previous analogy in my post...
the starting point of the chi-sao drill is like 2 partners each facing 2 lanes of oncoming traffic..potential...you dont know what side its coming from ...

left and right lanes...this will develop the intuitive movement to avoid being in the middle of oncoming traffic from 2 lanes in traffic jams ...and fight across one lane with your 2 lanes now becoming one, one car after another on a single lane intersecting the line of force that just came at you...iow you use your 2 free hands to attack across one side of a committed attack line from the partner...

the partners can send out a random 'line of force' aka a car coming left or right side at you...you respond by being guided to avoid the potential for another line of force [car] coming from the other lane....which line of force comes first is your guide to movement to counter or attack , action or reaction..iow what side to move to or attack on.

you have 2 facing lines of force as well, to randomly deliver lines of force [ your cars] to the partner, he or she wants avoid being in the center of 2 lanes of traffic as well , role playing for each other...the line of force you deliver [your car left or right lane] will give the other partner a chance to move and angle toi ma off the center lane to adopt a side angle to drive back across the lane you have created ...he will try to strike the space not crash the cars on the lane before you...

By creating a bridge that travels over the lane it becomes easier to avoid being hit...

bong reclaims the bridge over the arm that has [driven] over yours ....

when you start to see the blind side /flanking responses and traps to prevent the 2 lanes from facing you you see the idea is simple...

allow the other guy to drive a car at you so you see where to maneuver to....

Once the action is done you can start to flow with the traffic ....

wherever the destination moves to is where you steer your car.[stay with what drives at you and follow it as it goes into reverse ]..so you have to have chum kil to change directions quickly and thoughtlessly, autopilot.

spatially you can see that the lines of force can intersect each other without contact of arms ever being made. so you dont have to wait to smother a guy with arms creating a pile up / jam...rather you want to turn the lanes either way so you have one lane to cross over...what side that move takes is from tactical directions...

you stab with your left knife and have another knife in your right hand...I can minimize the % of your right hand working by going to your left and attacking as I do so....if I stay in your middle you can use either weapon while I turn to face each coming at me in turn....you attack right etc....

we can move and face a protractor idea rather than a lead leg [bad driving head on into 2 lanes] center entry

fight along a perimeter facing with aside stances shifting and turning as the movement is made, trying to intuitively shift with the leading strikes ...grabbing is done [lop] to force the turns or 'lane shifts' .....

blade and hand, only the footwork has been changed to allow for long extensions and razor edges wildly swinging around ...so knife has the same tactics but wider working areas, simultaneously attacking extending arms rather than head/body....hands use the forearms to acts as countermeasures , while the strikes go in...requirig the same tactics , but shorter movement, shuffling steps in close to keep balance and transfer force from the structure to striking actions attacking etc....

the wrists xing the centerline in bare hand fighting isnt done with knives for the edge of the knife you will cut yourself .

2 lanes of potential traffic what side to go to for % ?

hands start drills facing equally only so they can share the drill starting points to MOVE FROM once the side is revealed as the attack line of force..ie a leading stepping jab, a leading step grab to your wrist....facing a guy and seeeing the leading edge coming at you...you dont think what side ? which arm ? balance good bad ?? will my punch stop them as I strike with elbows in using either arm ?

dont get stuck in the starting gate rolling constantly like your 2 lanes of traffic ramming cars over and over looking for small gaps to pass into...get out of the middle of the road and shift so the road cant face you again as you drive to your destination...

their is more but ...lot of reading...simpler in action than words...many guys play the game of you cant get past my double parked car tag...no destination in mind just playing the game of looking for a parking space driving around the same blocks over and over ...following another car looking for a space....no development aside form that idea...you get great at the 'game' of chi-sao...but not the 'goal' of chi-sao

[Katsu Jin Ken]

K Gledhill- you hit the nail on the head.

Also, I think many wing chunners get hung up on "right" "wrong" ways of doing techniques in general. Right and wrong defensive and offensive blur together IMO as long as you dont "break" any of the wing chun "rules". As long as you have control of your opponent. That's what chi sao is to me, controling my opponent, nothing more. I need to control, disrupt, unbalance him so that he cant strike im not trying to just beat him to the punch. i want him to be so off balance and out of place that he cant strike if he wanted to. Ive got a broken foot so i've had the past couple months to catchup on reading and pondering things lol

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . I think many wing chunners get hung up on "right" "wrong" ways of doing techniques in general. Right and wrong defensive and offensive blur together IMO as long as you dont "break" any of the wing chun "rules". As long as you have control of your opponent. That's what chi sao is to me, controling my opponent, nothing more. I need to control, disrupt, unbalance him so that he cant strike im not trying to just beat him to the punch. i want him to be so off balance and out of place that he cant strike if he wanted to. . . . .

That was right on point.

[k gledhill]

chi-sao is another stage to go through for free fighting later from no contact, not the end of the road , so to speak...

control comes from Attacking

gor sao next....

fighting with weapons...would you do sticky knife ? rolling 2 blades smothering in a dirty knife clinch, facing each knife ? I think not . Apply the same logic to bare hands that may or may no be armed.

stages of developing the arms ability to fight from angles

Idea in SLT

dan chi-sao for developing the striking ability of the arms, to strike and use the forearms to deflect.
No rolling sticking stuff using the wrists to deflect tan downwards. You will NEVER develop an arm to both strike with a fist AND deflect with elbow angles if you use the wrists moving off line...

chi-sao co-ordination and starting to develop intuitive movement both attacking a moving target going off-line from facing you, and vice versa ...using the striking developed in dan chi-sao in 1 beat strikes...no longer 1 elbow in [jum] 2 strike...versus tan's elbow spreads off the line as it strikes 1-2 beat...

gor sao learn to fight from no pre-contact as the previous drills using the techniques/tactics to simply deliver the attacking techniques that require individual arms to have technical ability to deliver simultaneous striking /deflecting....from dan chi-etc...tactical movement to motion from chi-sao, coupled with the techniques for recovering the attacking strike lines ...developed in chi-sao.

all aimed at delivering a thoughtless attack.