Agreed!Originally Posted by Graychuan
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Agreed!
Registered User
You can go into just about any boxing gym and get footage of yourself mixing it up with some of the guys.
Can you see how having to go only against a specific boxer who comes to your class affects any credibility that you might be trying to achieve?
Resigned
the key to "proving" the effectiveness of anything is trying it against someone who has no interest in you as an individual, no investment in your looking good at the end of the day; it's like therapy: you know it works when you can do it on a patient who is psychologically negative towards what you are doing (my favorite kind to treat, actually - I like to freak them out by treating them from across the room via verbal instructions as to what to do w/their breathing, eye movements, etc. - the worst thing you can do to a passive aggressive patient is show them that they can self-manage; oh the disappointment!)
the reality of effectiveness is generalizability and ease of transfer: the more rarified your approach, the more constraints on its function; even the Taoists would agree - truth lies in non-differentiation!
Banned
"You can go into just about any boxing gym and get footage of yourself mixing it up with some of the guys.
Can you see how having to go only against a specific boxer who comes to your class affects any credibility that you might be trying to achieve?" (Knifefighter)
***NO, and for the following reasons.
As you'll see when the vid is made, the guy is a really good boxer, and I'll probably eat some punches. This will not be some one-sided complete domination. It will be clear that he's not just some guy in the wing chun class who's trying "to make like a boxer" - but who in fact has little or no real boxing skills.
And given his height, weight, and reach (he goes 6'0" tall and weighs 200 lbs. - to my 5'10"/170)...I"ll probably have to use some kicks and other longer range moves (boxing straight leads, crosses, etc.) some "non-wing chun" footwork, and other things in order to get in and (hopefully) dominate the match.
And then maybe he'll start using some kicks, knees, elbows, too - I don't know. But the point is, he can really box, and, given that, and his size - I'm going to have to use some longer range technique/strategy than simply "pure" wing chun...
in order to either score from long range and/or get to close range and try to dominate with wing chun and whatever else - otherwise he's going to pick me apart.
This is what I've come to see over the years, both working with him and with some other guys - all of whom are taller/and or heavier than me - and all of whom brought some skills from other styles to my school and then spent a significant amount of years training with me in wing chun.
What this vid will be intended to show is not just how "wing chun vs. boxing" might work out - but something way beyond that: I'm going to be trying to show why and how adding to wing chun will make it better...
hell, I might even go to full clinch and throw some stuff, or go for a takedown or a shoot, I don't know.
I couldn't do these things I'm talking about if I simply walked into Gleason's gym and asked to spar someone.
Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 06-23-2009 at 09:56 AM.
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Are most boxing gyms really willing for anyone to come in off the street, ask for a spar, video the sparring and then post the video on the internet? I can see maybe 1 & 2 being possible but the last 2 points?
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Back when I was learning how to fight with WC I did exactly this, went to boxing gyms in Chicago looking to spar. It was not as easy as knifeboy makes it seem. I was able to do it at 2 gyms but primarily because one of my training partners was a former pro boxer and he had to arrange things for me .
Things may be different now but back then ,over a decade ago , gym owners worried about things like liability issues and a host of other things so strangers just walking in off the street with no proof of experience were not just put into the ring with " KILLER" and allowed to go at it.
I had much better luck from the newspaper ads I ran looking for sparring partners from any and all styles to train with. Ended up with folks ranging from just out of prison crazy men to blackbet s of all types from boxers and MT folks to future BJJ blackbelts. If you can handle the crazies this is the way to go imho.
Last edited by hunt1; 06-23-2009 at 05:28 AM.
Banned
Good post.
My experience is that it is difficult to walk in off the street and just ask to spar with people in boxing, MT, or BJJ schools -- that situation raises from their perspective all sorts of possible problems, ranging from they are dealing with a nutter, to whether you are physical prepared to do it and not get injured, etc. If you want to do it, the best way that I've found is to join their gym or class for a time. That builds trust and you get the benefit of the cross-training. And often you can ask for a bit of limited sparring as a bona fide before you join ("I just want to see what your guys can do").
But, some MMA/BJJ places do have an open mat policy or special time reserved for it.
Junior Member
Guys,
Just as a side note, since this issue has been brought up by some people. I don't want to get involved in any arguments, but I do want to say although Terence trained briefly with me, I taught him all that was relevant and pertained to WCK, that I knew at that time. I went through my entire WCK curriculum with him on the 3 forms, Jong, pole and knives, the complete Gu Lao points, Chi Sao, body structure, applications of each move of the form, positioning, timing, applications against other systems, how to train with equipment, transitioning to weaponry or grappling, jointlocking, throws, freefighting, footwork, teaching drills, and other things. WCK can be taught in a very short period of time, but to perfect it requires much practice and time.
My goal is to teach as thoroughly as possible, and have the student go on from there. I'm no mercenary, but when I teach, I don't hold back. If I know things, I tell you, show you and have you feel it. If I don't know something, I say I don't know, I never BS a student. Terence flew me to St. Louis where I met his group, and he has a talented group of fighters who train regularly with him. Some of them are very advanced.
Prior to him studying with me he had already learned much of the Wing Tsun curriculum and knew the Australian TWC curriculum as well. He's very good and trains very hard, and has good insight. Perhaps teaching in this way may not be traditional, nor does a student stay with me all the time, but at least I have given him the tools to work and develop for himself. And perhaps my failure is I do not put philosophical dogma on a student by teaching him a "kung fu life" or try to control them, or force them to accept my worldview. I hope you understand, although he learned briefly, I held nothing back.
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Although I've never met T is person, you can recognize in what he has to say that he knows a thing or too about fighting. I've read a couple of his articles that he wrote years ago on body structure and the such, and it was obvious then that he knows quite well what good WC is. I recognized this in my Ernie as well, we used to have offline chats and I realized then that what he was talking about was higher level ideas and concepts, which in the end made me want to travel to LA to train with him and Sifu Lam. My only problem with T is his rudeness towards others on the forum, some more tact may be needed on his part to avoid further conflicts with people.
James
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I jsut wanted to clear something up. On the link above (which I had never seen-- only showing that I don't google my own name), the following appeared:
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Re: St. Louis Wing Chunner
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I heard of him. But don't know where he is. He learn Wing Chun from Sifu Robert Lee MacField and Mau Chang. The Lineage is Yuen Kay San. Very effective.
I know of Yip Man school in St.charles though...I also know where some people who are related to Mau Chang Yuen Kay San Wing Chun practice at in University City. I go that often to increase my skill in Wing Chun and learn more Theory and Application....
Just to be clear, I never "learned" or trained with McField or Ma Chang (Eddie Ma) and don't practice YKS WCK (and I could make a rather good case that neither do they).
Banned
Here's another one, but I recommend watching it with the sound off (the music is horrible) - and the video quality is not the best. But again, the longer range boxing moves and footwork did quite a bit to neutralize the wing chun infight - and the fighters are all about the same size.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8VkwXH4Kdo&NR=1
Chris Gray
Ill give you that the boxers did score shots but so did the chunnas. And from what I saw the boxers were still on the retreat more than on the advance.
Also, my opinion is that niether the boxing or the Chun was all that good in the video. We can all debate the Chun but the best boxing was done when the two boxers were against each other. The two boxers threw more combos. But they kept thier hands way to low and wasted opportunites to score more hits. My opinions come from the fact that I train boxing with Ali and his boxers 3 times a week. This includes sparring for 4 rounds, 3 minutes per round.So I am not just throwing opinions out there. But I am not the authority.
I am also wondering why only one guy had headgear and the other didnt? Either both or none would have been more appropriate.
These are just my opinons and not everyone will agree. I dont expect them to agree. I apologize in advance if anyone gets peeved. Tensions are high in the forums lately....
我听见，我忘记；我看见，我记住；我做，我了解。
I hear, I forget; I see, I remember; I do, I understand.
GM of Hadaka Korosu
When to different systems collide, the one that is best able to enforce their strengths will be victorious, that takes a bit of skill when both are facing systems with different footwork and defense that they are not accustomed to, typicaly the one fighter that makes the transition quicker, wins.
Chris Gray
I completely agree with you there, San. In my sparring I am used to the luxury of being able to chase down oppoents and bridge the gap with kicks and less foot work, especially if they run a lot. But in boxing....if you only use the tools of boxing then it is a helluva lot harder to get into effective range to score against someone who knows good boxing footwork, has really good defensive strategy(as relates to boxing) and is conditioned properly. Especially if you didnt do it on a regular basis at first. Took me a few months but the conditioning has caught up.
我听见，我忘记；我看见，我记住；我做，我了解。
I hear, I forget; I see, I remember; I do, I understand.
Registered User
hi sifu victor re mster cheungs comments chi gerk , i think he is right how the heck, are you going to get into a postion , to use it against a thai ? no way i have a video of my ex sifu doing it and i thought it was olny for pratice, i hated doing it re my balace i think its olny for tradional purose olny regards russell sherry
russellsherry
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