Why is Internal training fail?

[JPinAZ]

which WCK do you practice?

could you please get into sharing Why is Internal training fail?

Answer my questions which I asked first, then I'll be happy to answer yours

Like I said, we first have to figure out what we are discussing. Are we talking IMA in WCK failing (or having failed in your opinion) or just talkign about IMA failing in general. Also, we have to determine if it really is failing, or is this just your opinion. Also, if just in general, what does it have to do with WCK and why even discuss in the first place?
Is it because it's all you kinda know about and you can't really discuss WCK at any length so you keep reverting back to this subject?

[JPinAZ]

Hendrik, in case you missed my questions the first time (abridged version):

Hendrik: It really bother me when I see some so called internal stylist cannot show and explain how to do basic Fajin. or talking theory one way but cant implement their stuffs.

Me: Now, since you brought up the subject, I'm curious if you can show and explain basic fajin in application? (that's fighting if you didn't know).

Hendrik: So, without knowing how to do Fajin and Jie Jin it is hopeless even to mention using the IMA one practice in fighting. it is just Hopeless and Fantasy of moving arms around, hitting around, or dance around which actually do nothing and improve nothing. using those to against mma or Kyokushin? those are joke.

Me:Good, so then you can use the IMA you practice in fighting then? If so, how is that possible to know if, as you say, you do not spar or fight?

Hendrik: So, why Do I go doing those research to identify the White Crane and Emei DNA in SLT? because one needs a direction to go back to the IMA.

Me:I'm curious why you would do that as well. Where is the proof that WCK was an IMA, but the IMA is now lost in the first place? Maybe the WCK you practice is incomplete, or you can't make it work, so now you go back to other arts and add stuff in in an attempt to fill holes? And now you have crane/emei hybrid WCK. Not saying this is the case, but sounds possible....

[Vajramusti]

Trying to avoid the disappearance of the original topic.


A top quality Chinese and some other martial arts - to be good, will have both external and internal elements fused together.
Good teachers pass on that fusion to good students.

Sometimes the chain of transmission gets broken by teachers with incomplete knowledge or students with poor learning skills. And with external aspects of training and internal there can be and are phonies and hucksters.

Ip Man was an avid learner and IMO he had the fusion of external and internal. To those he taught carefully he was able to transmit the fusion. Other who were just public class members or non tuition paying or haphazard learners didn't get it and developed what they got in their own way...hence
a source of great confusion.

Ip man's hands on teaching didn't depend on much chit chat, or discussion of metaphysics but it did mean a good fusion of TCMA and WC physical, mental and energy principles.

I agree with Hendrik in part and disagree in part. The fusion has not completely died out but the internal has become in many circles just a word or object of ridicule or a source of fraud, depending on who, what, when and why.....please no Dillman, empty force etc.
If you don't have proper stance and structure and natural breathing and self control to begin with, one can forget about the internal IMO of course and internet chit chat won't resurrect it.

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

Agreed Joy!

Just having the basic Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma held in proper positioning you have health, power and application.

Health because of the allowing oxygen to freely expand the lungs through diaphragmatic breathing. This type of breathing has an added benefit of massaging and circulating blood to the internal organs. When the internal organs are healthy, everything functions well. Respiration, digestion, circulation, and mental/emotional processes are all enhanced.

Power is developed through the linkage of the structure as a unit. No separate parts striking.

Application, as it allows one clarity of mind to engage in changes of linking, delinking, guiding, sticking, running, stealing, leaking, etc. and set them up.

This is not just hardstyle training or relying on reflex, but to engage realtime in the moment.

[Vajramusti]

Agree with the details of your post as well.

joy chaudhuri

[m1k3]

Joy and Robert,

Now that we are back on topic could you perhaps provide some form of an explanation of what we are talking about when we are discussing internal arts.

For example:

Power is developed through the linkage of the structure as a unit. No separate parts striking.

How is a strike internal vs external. (It is obvious that I have no internal training what so ever.) For example could a boxing punch with good structure using the body as a whole, no separate parts be considered an internal strike? If not could either or both of you take a shot at explaining the difference.

Thanks,

Mike

[Vajramusti]

Joy and Robert,

Now that we are back on topic could you perhaps provide some form of an explanation of what we are talking about when we are discussing internal arts.

For example:

How is a strike internal vs external. (It is obvious that I have no internal training what so ever.) For example could a boxing punch with good structure using the body as a whole, no separate parts be considered an internal strike? If not could either or both of you take a shot at explaining the difference.

Thanks,

Mike

__________________________________________________ _________________
Hi Mike- w ref to your sig- I have taught wc toa couple of good people who also had Semper Fi as their motto.One was in Vietnam and middle east among other places. Another was in Desert Storm."Internal" is just nature at work. But the west has had a more zig zagging path emphasizing "phenomena'" and downplaying "noumena" specially since a major church conference (Nicean?) and edict many centuries ago.
In my time, I boxed and didn't do badly at all in that activity or in "real" fights. But on occasion a good boxer may show a flash as in Ali's short punch in the second(?) Liston fight- most people didn't even see it-some didn't believe it-Ali towering over the downed Liston was hollering at him to get up-because he didn't want people to disbelieve what happened. But he didnt really reproduce it again.The latent primitive element just came out.Good internal work based on structure and related dynamics and natural breathing rather than "snorting" or "kia-ing"- tries to integrate that element without abandoning external work.
Boxing punches are normally effective against people of roughly the same weight class. And the efficient time window of a boxer is relatively short. A boxer's stance is generally top heavy- that is not the case with good internal training.
Many wing chun people don't develop a good punch because the structural linkages are missing
or broken.
There is more- but this is not a lawyer's brief.Won't convince evryone-but that is ok. You did ask.

Regards, joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

Hi Mike,

IMO, the terms internal and external mean a lot of different things to different people. I do not think it should be used just to talk about a punch.

A punch has proper mechanics or not. A WCK punch with good alignment is no more internal or external than a boxing right cross or left jab. The only difference is the amount of linkage and shift in body weight/balance in all punches. Hence a punch is a punch.

The terms internal and external are silly in a way; they originally meant that some Xing Yi and Ba Gua people were like brothers and could practice both arts simultaneously and be "in the family". Later some Tai Ji people jumped on the bandwagon. Then Sun Lu Tang and the Central Kuo Shu Guan thought they could foster the 3 arts and differentiate them from Shaolin or other arts...the funniest thing is Tai Ji does not punch like Xing Yi or Ba Gua - and all 3 arts do not share the same mechanics.

I think what Hendrik is referring to is this alleged classification as these 3 arts are called today.

In all martial training, there is, of course, "Wai Lian" (external training) which trains the movement, bones, muscles, sinew; then there is "Nei Xiu" (Internal cultivation) which focuses on intent, balancing health, breath, channels and body areas. Most lack the necessary cultivation in the internal area or don't care - they'd prefer to focus on the training, then strategy and tactics. But of course, classical training has all of these components.

Hope this helps.

[m1k3]

__________________________________________________ _________________
Hi Mike- w ref to your sig- I have taught wc toa couple of good people who also had Semper Fi as their motto.One was in Vietnam and middle east among other places. Another was in Desert Storm."Internal" is just nature at work. But the west has had a more zig zagging path emphasizing "phenomena'" and downplaying "noumena" specially since a major church conference (Nicean?) and edict many centuries ago.
In my time, I boxed and didn't do badly at all in that activity or in "real" fights. But on occasion a good boxer may show a flash as in Ali's short punch in the second(?) Liston fight- most people didn't even see it-some didn't believe it-Ali towering over the downed Liston was hollering at him to get up-because he didn't want people to disbelieve what happened. But he didnt really reproduce it again.The latent primitive element just came out.Good internal work based on structure and related dynamics and natural breathing rather than "snorting" or "kia-ing"- tries to integrate that element without abandoning external work.
Boxing punches are normally effective against people of roughly the same weight class. And the efficient time window of a boxer is relatively short. A boxer's stance is generally top heavy- that is not the case with good internal training.
Many wing chun people don't develop a good punch because the structural linkages are missing
or broken.
There is more- but this is not a lawyer's brief.Won't convince evryone-but that is ok. You did ask.

Regards, joy chaudhuri

Thank you, very good answer, especially the "church conference reference".

So, trying to take this to the next level. Rather than the top heavy shoulder whirl punch used by many boxers an internal strike would be more of sitting down in your stance and driving up from the heel through the whole body chain structure?

Poor wording but if you read Dempsey's book or Teri Tom's book on the straight lead you'll get where I'm coming from.

[Vajramusti]

Thank you, very good answer, especially the "church conference reference".

So, trying to take this to the next level. Rather than the top heavy shoulder whirl punch used by many boxers an internal strike would be more of sitting down in your stance and driving up from the heel through the whole body chain structure?

Poor wording but if you read Dempsey's book or Teri Tom's book on the straight lead you'll get where I'm coming from.(Mike)
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Yes....however....there is a little more to it......
being more square bodied and both hands working together would be good.
Wing Chun is really a two handed system more so than boxing. One hand helps with the power of the other in wing chun...more so than in boxing.
Mike Tyson unfortunately wasted his talent away because of personal problems and he fired the one trainer, a protege of D'Amato and was close to him before the Douglas fight and kept going down hill since then.... he lost his peekaboo as well and his training discipline. One of the things about the original peekaboo (Mike would have demolished Dempsey IMO) is that the triangle is there with the elbows in and the hands at the apex . When one hand moves it picks up support from the other. Tyson didn't dance that much. But Dempsey,Ali, Tyson---also showed the relative brevity of a boxing career- even shorter in the MMA cage(only 15 fights and you can be a champion for a litttle while and then slink into oblivion.Abbot, Coleman and now Liddel) ((BTW- showing my years- I have met the late great Dempsey at his now gone Manhattan restaurant and talked with him!!))

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Answer my questions which I asked first, then I'll be happy to answer yours

The topic of this thread is "Why is Internal training fail?" please stay in the topic or starts your own thread.


If you interested in my view on your creative questions,
please use the Search Engine of the forum on my view to those questions of yours.


This is my final answer to you. it is your choice to focus on the topic or leave or here on ignored.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
This is a type of internal art

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLiHEkDRjS8



While Tensho may be an internal kata, to categorize kyokuhsin as internal is quite incorrect, at least in the core development stages.
All systems become "internal" after time.

1, Notice I refer it as Internal "ART". Not stereo typing Kyokushin as internal.
Not to mention, there is a different between an Internal ART , Internal Style, or Internal.



2, Saying that, the basic component of the Internal ART TENSO is IBUKI breathing.
According to the Chinese Classification, IBUKI is similar to the basic of hard Qigong Internal practice.

I dont know different version of Kyokushin, the Kyokushin I practice IBUKI is always practice in every training (in the begining or at the end of the season) , before taking punches/kick testing, at the time taking punch/kick for strengthening/demo or body strengten conditioning, before after the sparing, after taking a hit in the sparing........ not limited to before /after the Tenso form practice.


So, is Kyokushin also practicing Internal Art?

[m1k3]

Robert and Joy, thank you very much for the clear answers. They helped alot. I am just a dabbler in WCK but discussions like this, when you filter out the noise, can be very helpful.

Now to follow forum protocol should I either challenge one of you to gong sau, boast of my fighting skills or simply derail the thread with who knows what?

Joy, also, thanks for the boxing references, I am old enough to remember Ali beating Liston. "He's too ugly to be champion!". BTW I think old Foreman could have beaten young Tyson. He was just too big and too strong and Foreman had a why with swarmers.

Keeping with the boxing analogy would either of you consider WCK to be a swarming style? I realize this is a bit of a stretch but it could be interesting.

Again thanks to both of you for the well thought out responses.

Hendrick, since this is your thread what do you think of this discussion so far?

Mike

[Hendrik]

I migrate this post here.

Quote:
uote:
1. tai chi practitioners initially practice the postures very slowly. because tai chi power also involves total body movement/coordination and complete relaxation, they move slowly to get the movements burned into their brains and to learn to relax (because tension while moving is a very common thing that they need to learn to resist)

This above is a 1000% misleading. and clueless.

Quote:
That's the theory, but it doesn't work that way. You can't develop fast or powerful or explosive movements by practicing slowly. Modern sport science has proved that beyond a doubt. You've provided a perfect example of a trainng method that has been completely refuted by modern research, by sport science, and by their own results, yet people continue to train that way and continue, like you, to believe it despite the evidence. That sort of training is pure crap.

It is true what above describe doesnt work. Even the Theory is totally misleading.
HOwever, TCMA IMA is not this totally, Absolutely not as the above.


practicing slowly does help and it is a REQUIRMENT to prepare for and or testing powerful or explosive movements and fast acceleration power generation. that is CERTAIN. but limited only to those who knows the process of Fajin

Quote:
Quote:
they are training in a way that does not 100% mirror a live situation but the training does not inhibit their application

Again, the above make no sense totally at all. This type of view is 100000% not accord to IMA or Taiji and totally goes in an OPPOSITE direction of Taiji or IMA.

Quote:
Sure it does. As I explained above. Not only that, but you can see that from their own results -- out of all the millions of tai ji practitioners, where is there evidence that any are competent fighters?

The idea above is NOThing to do with TaiJi or IMA but someone's ignorance speculative Idea.

Draw conclusion on the above ideas is also blind speculation without knowing what is reality.


There are lots of Combat competent Taiji players, and I myself have a few Taiji sifus who is good including a 70 old sifu Pan who was a all Taiwan senior age Push Hand champion where I dont have advantage toward him even with attack such as the Kyokushin K1 style attack, cant penetrate him but to force tie forcefully. this is when I was 35 years old.

I wont use the ADJECTIVE fighters here because Fighters doesnt mean a thing. every one can call oneself a fighter or even a jedi fighter.....

[Hendrik]

Hendrick, since this is your thread what do you think of this discussion so far?

Mike

Mike,


good discussion,

I would like to see more things got stir up. because to be real honest, most IMA concept is totally misleading this days. and the general public is losing it.