Significance of Baisi Ceremony in Hung Ga

[bamboozled]

What is the significance of the baisi ceremony today? Is it purely symbolic? If a student performs the baisi ceremony, what are the obligations of the student to the sifu and vice versa?

Thanks.

[David Jamieson]

you are a disciple when you do this.

you basically are acknowledging your sifu as your father and teacher fully, and you are now honour bound to do what is asked and even demanded of you.

it is also a good indication that the disciple will be taught the entire system and be expected to carry it forward to the next generations.

...in a nutshell.

I don't actually think much of that kind of honour exists among kungfu students anymore. Life isn't hard enough here to give it the kind of relevance it once had.

[bamboozled]

What does the actual baisi ceremony entail?

[David Jamieson]

What does the actual baisi ceremony entail?

it is a ritual whereby you kneel before your master, swear an oath, drink some tea on it and you receive your red book.

Doesn't take long, oaths vary depending on the sifu, but mostly it is a show of obedience and supplication to the teacher and the teachings.

[TenTigers]

it is not obedience and supplication, it is a pledge of loyalty between the Sifu and the Disciple.
This means mutual loyalty.
The Disciple pledges to train hard, learn everything the Sifu teaches him, and maintain the integrity of the system.
The Sifu in turn, pledges to teach his disciple to the best of his ability and not leave anything out or hold back techniques.

(This last part has been debated and sometimes currupted and bent by some Sifus, thus allowing them to differentiate between disciples and heirs, and in some cases, even have levels of disciples-each with their own separate bai-si fee)

[SiMui]

What's the red book?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

The record of your Bai Si.

Technically, your only evidence of the event. Obviously now, there is photo and video as well. The red book doesn't mean as much as it did at one point I guess.

[SteveLau]

Well said, TenTigers.

Personally, I think the Baisi ceremony is kind of outdated. In comparison to the ceremony of marriage, the relation between the sifu and disciple is more important than the ceremony itself. We can have good relationship and mutual loyalty even without people going through the Baisi ceremony.




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[TenTigers]

There are some bonds between teacher and student that are stronger than performing a formal ceremony.

one of my teachers simply says,"Tung Do Jung Yan." Two people walking the same path together-kindered spirits, so to speak. He's in his seventies. He simply took me in, and teaches me and treats me as family, kind of like an Uncle.

My SPM teacher is one of my closest friends. He teaches out of friendship, and asks only that I practice. He holds nothing back, as he feels he is still on this journey as well.

[David Jamieson]

it is not obedience and supplication, it is a pledge of loyalty between the Sifu and the Disciple.
This means mutual loyalty.
The Disciple pledges to train hard, learn everything the Sifu teaches him, and maintain the integrity of the system.
The Sifu in turn, pledges to teach his disciple to the best of his ability and not leave anything out or hold back techniques.

(This last part has been debated and sometimes currupted and bent by some Sifus, thus allowing them to differentiate between disciples and heirs, and in some cases, even have levels of disciples-each with their own separate bai-si fee)

You're splitting hairs.

loyalty demands obedience and supplication.
don't take it as a negative, merely as a real effect of the riggings and doings of it.
How can you be loyal and disobedient? You cannot.
How can you be loyal to someone who you do not defer to?
You cannot.

Like I said, don't take it negatively. Of course it is mutual, but if obedience and supplication is not part and parcel, why kneel? why bow? why show such deference to someone who is mutual?
It's not a peerage, is it master then disciple and not the other way round.
It's a hierarchy, no getting around it.

It's not bad. It's kind of a necessary mechanism for full disclosure and initiation into esoteric rites and practices such as they are in kungfu societies of a nature that involves these rituals.

[bamboozled]

Does the relationship extend beyond the kwoon or only in the context of kung fu? Would you consider it a "good" or "bad" thing (whatever that means)?

IMHO it would be quite an honor to be asked to baisi. I understand from the student's perspective - the opportunity to learn the full system. But from the sifu's perspective - why ?

[eomonroe00]

from a sifu's perspective you have one more student who promises to hold the system and one day pass it on so the system stays in tact and does not die out, today many practice the arts to get a workout, while there is nothing wrong with this, no sifu wants his system to end with him, and so you need committed students who truly love the art,

[bamboozled]

Man, am I ever glad you said that. I would have been pretty disappointed and disillusioned if someone said "...so he can get you to wash his car every week...and pick up his laundry...and pay his bills...."

[TenTigers]

Man, am I ever glad you said that. I would have been pretty disappointed and disillusioned if someone said "...so he can get you to wash his car every week...and pick up his laundry...and pay his bills...."

yeah, dont think that doesn't happen.

[David Jamieson]

Does the relationship extend beyond the kwoon or only in the context of kung fu? Would you consider it a "good" or "bad" thing (whatever that means)?

IMHO it would be quite an honor to be asked to baisi. I understand from the student's perspective - the opportunity to learn the full system. But from the sifu's perspective - why ?

Yes the relationship extends outside of the kwoon.
A discipleship goes beyond mere martial arts lessons.

If all you are getting is martial arts lessons, then it seems rather absurd to baisi.

You can get martial training without any of that. It is the other material that is of equal importance.