Hop Ga kicks/ attn: diego

[jdhowland]

Lets start with basics. Hop Ga or other lama stylists should feel free to critique.

Daan geuk: single kick, also called "bullet" kick. This is the common "snap kick" which can be directed forward or to the side. The kick is initiated by raising the knee before extending the foot. Striking surface is the toe of the shoe, top of foot, ankle or shin.

Paak geuk: ("slapping the foot") can be any kick which inlcudes slapping the foot or brushing the foot into the palm at the focus of the kick. The slap ensures proper timing, focus and range of the kick. To a lesser degree it provides some contact conditioning. For a swing kick, keep the palm at or just beyond the target point to ensure full power and range at point of contact. The kick should easily overcome the resistance of the hand. For a toe kick, bring the forearm and palm directly down your center/target line to keep the foot from shifting laterally off target. In our school, we also use the term "paak geuk" to refer to an inside crescent kick trained in this way.

Deng: heel kick. Strong dorsiflexion on the foot as it is thrust forward and upward. The bottom of the heel is the striking surface. The ball of the foot should not make contact with the target. There is no snap to this kick. In other words, the knee is not flexed immidiately after contact. Rather, the heel is allowed to scrape upward until its momentum is gone. The pelvis should both lead the kick and follow it to allow uninterrupted power. This one is good for training on a heavy bag.

Tin gong geuk: In training, this is the front rising heel kick with the knee locked straight. Good for training hamstring elasticity. The kick is accelerated in an arc as far as you can go. It is better to lean into it for power than to lean back for the appearance of greater flexibility. In its pure form, this is a slow but strong kick and is good for developing strength and range for other kicks. In application, the knee can be bent to varying degrees.

(To be continued.)

jd

[diego]

So the three styles use the same stance and the same rear hand swinging strikes...you can do lama fist, tiger claw or finger spearing technique with the side bow stance with the rear hand stretched out behind.

From a fitness theory perspective what happens to the student through the three training stages of Meteor Fists, Crane Cutting Hand, and needle in cotton...like what happens to your side bow stance...you can put your fingers in watermelons at the cutting hand stage or meteor fistlevel, or is it level three?

Atatuojin's method was refined into six separate divisions/forms. These
are:

1. (Yi Xing Quan) Meteor/Comet Hands - Developed off of Potala Sengwa Ngwa
by Duoluojitan Lama for the Dub-Dub sect, as he thought that the (Fei He
Shou) Flying Crane Hands division was to complicated for initiates. It is
based on the movements of the Yeti (White Ape), and consists of four worlds
and four directions. North, Square World, the Overhand Strike. South,
Triangle World, the Straight Punch. East, Crescent World , the Uppercut
Strike. West, Round World, the Hooking Strike. Two position later added were
the backfist and claw.

2. (Luohan) Arhat - The last division to be added. Largely influenced by
Shaolinsi Quanfa, and based on the sixteen Tibetan Luohans and two Chinese
Luohans. This division contains the basic theories based on Simhanada
Vajramukti brought to China by Pu Ti Damo. This method was devised by
imitating the static postures of the Luohan statues of Shaolinsi, and led to
the development of Shiba Luohan Quan.

3. (Fei He Shou) Flying Crane Hands - This is the Adamantine Bodhisattva
(Diamond) and Jin Gang Luohan (Golden) Division. As well as the Five
Forms/Animals (Tiger, Leopard, Crane, Snake and Dragon) and Five Elements
(Metal, Water, Wood, Fire, Earth) Divisions.

4. (Miluofoshou/Budaishou) Maitreya Buddha Hands - An intermediate level
that teaches the five levels of Qinna.

5. (Mei Hua Quan) Plum Blossom Fist - Another intermediate level that was
added by Lama Jicbokowtow. This is the training where the individual "Opens
the petals (Jingluo) to release the perfume (Qi)". This was traditionally
done upon the Mei Hua Zhuang - Plum Blossom Stumps.

6. (Dou Luo Shou/Chan Hu Shou) Gauze/Silk Wrapping Hands - The advanced
level teaching the internal aspects of "Iron (Needle) Wrapped in Cotton".
Nei Qigong, Wai Qigong and Taiji Quan.

eight divisions were then used to create three distinct "forms", sometimes thought of as different levels or fighting theories. The three forms were "flying crane hands" (Fei Hok Sau), "Maitreya hands" (Neih Lahk Sau), and "Dou Lo hands". Thus, the system was actually quite complex.

"Flying crane hands"
(Fei Hok Sau)
was devoted to all of the fundamental level fighting techniques of the system and was composed of both fist strikes and open hand techniques aimed at vital points, kicking and sweeping techniques, evasive footwork, and continuous circular striking combinations.
"Maitreya hands"
(Neih Lahk Sau)
was devoted to the advanced fighting techniques and was composed of seizing, holding and twisting techniques and a very specialized skill known as the "vein seizing hand".

The third and final division was known as "Dou Lo hands" and was named for a plant indigenous to India, whose seeds have a hard outer shell but a soft, cotton like, substance within it. "Dou Lo Sau" was devoted to internal aspects of the system such as vital point striking and the special "vein changing skill". The needle in cotton hand set is derived from techniques of the "Dou Lo Sau" division.

After several generations, teachers of Lion's Roar kung-fu created a number of hand sets named after the Lo Han (Buddhist Saints) and the Gam Gong (literally "diamond" but referring to Buddhist Guradians). Furthermore, once Lion's Roar came to southern China its was renamed Lama Pai kung-fu and incorporated many techniques and ideas from Chinese martial arts. The original eight divisions, eight fundamentals in each division, and the three forms were gradually either forgotten or only explained to advanced students. If it were not for the recorded history left by earlier teachers, we may have never understood how Ah Dat-Ta developed the original Lion's Roar kung-fu system.

[diego]

Lets start with basics. Hop Ga or other lama stylists should feel free to critique.

Daan geuk: single kick, also called "bullet" kick. This is the common "snap kick" which can be directed foreward or to the side. The kick is initiated by raising the knee before extending the foot. Striking surface is the toe of the shoe, top of foot, ankle or shin.

Paak geuk: ("slapping the foot") can be any kick which inlcudes slapping the foot or brushing the foot into the palm at the focus of the kick. The slap ensures proper timing, focus and range of the kick. To a lesser degree it provides some contact conditioning. For a swing kick, keep the palm at or just beyond the target point to ensure full power and range at point of contact. The kick should easily overcome the resistance of the hand. For a toe kick, bring the forearm and palm directly down your center/target line to keep the foot from shifting laterally off target. In our school, we also use the term "paak geuk" to refer to an inside crescent kick trained in this way.

Deng: heel kick. Strong dorsiflexion on the foot as it is thrust foreward and upward. The bottom of the heel is the striking surface. The ball of the foot should not make contact with the target. There is no snap to this kick. In other words, the knee is not flexed immidiately after contact. Rather, the heel is allowed to scrape upward until its momentum is gone. The pelvis should both lead the kick and follow it to allow uninterrupted power. This one is good for training on a heavy bag.

Tin gong geuk: In training, this is the front rising heel kick with the knee locked straight. Good for training hamstring elasticity. The kick is accelerated in an arc as far as you can go. It is better to lean into it for power than to lean back for the appearance of greater flexibility. In its pure form, this is a slow but strong kick and is good for developing strength and range for other kicks. In application, the knee can be bent to varying degrees.

(To be continued.)

jd

I notice most of kaido's kick's you sink, rotate or rotate and sink depending how fast you are and then you swing the leg through the target creating room and a moment in time to follow up with another full body shot...I gotta watch the basic video again should repost in an hour or in the day.

http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/chaaiteui.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/feihokteui.jpg

[jdhowland]

So the three styles use the same stance and the same rear hand swinging strikes...you can do lama fist, tiger claw or finger spearing technique with the side bow stance with the rear hand stretched out behind.

Hi, diego.

In training basics, I would say that the three styles (three titles, really; the lineages are intertwined) have mostly the same theory and basics, exemplified by the long hand techniques from a side arrow horse. But from our very first Hop Ga fighting set the long and short hands are interspersed with, it seems, no preference for one over the other. This is in contrast to the White Crane I learned which spends years of emphasis on long range speed and flexibility in sets such as luhk lehk, chyut yahp bouh, tit lin kyuhn, tauh da, etc., before doing a lot of short hand training. I don't see this as a stylistic difference, just a different plan for teaching and integrating long and short.

jd

[jdhowland]

From a fitness theory perspective what happens to the student through the three training stages of Meteor Fists, Crane Cutting Hand, and needle in cotton...like what happens to your side bow stance...you can put your fingers in watermelons at the cutting hand stage or meteor fistlevel, or is it level three?

I don't know that Ng sigung ever used or acknowledged these divisions. They are usually associated with Ng Siu Jung's Baahk Hok version of lama. Harry Ng did learn Wong Lam Hoi's material as well as the Haahp Ga from Wong Yan Lam. But most of these organizational schemes are associated with either TWC or the expanded versions of Lama Paai, such as that taught by Lo Wai Keung. For example, Hop Ga doesn't have Needle in Cotton. Meteor fists, (louh sying kyuhn) are our basics, and white crane is an overall description of the appearance of our techniques. Muih fa jong is taught to beginners to develop leg skills.

Remember that when lama was first taught in the south, these divisions did not refer to specific fist forms, which were practically non-existent. They were developmental concepts suitable for different levels of training.

The side bow and arrow stance is essential in basic training. After all, the style was developed to combat expert wrestlers (you don't want those Mongolian wrestlers grabbing your legs). But you don't see it as much in the sets. It is always there as an option, but no one can predict what a fight will look like. Same with the comet hands. They don't go away just because chyun cheui might evolve into jin cheui ("arrow punch" fired from the chest instead of behind the body, or because kap cheui becomes a short pek cheui. The power and utility is still there from many hours of training in long hand style.

I hope this helps with your question about progressions in Hop Ga.

As for the watermelon thrust, ask M.P. about that. He's the expert. I'm still working on loganberries. You will understand unless you are too young to know the quote in my signature line.

Be well.

jd

[jdhowland]

Sou geuk: the sweeping legs or iron broom techniques are the same as in other systems, having forward and backward variations (contacting with heel or shin). Often trained in combination by alternating front and back sweeps.

Fuh mei geuk: Tiger tail kicks are similar to those in other styles. Variations exist for side kicks, spinning back heel thrusts, spinning hook kicks, etc,. One interesting variation of the tiger tail found in Hop Ga is a rising back heel kick in conjunction with the posture known as bai faht or "supplicating the buddha." This kick is actually a technique for throwing your enemy over your back after catching his shoulder.

Syuhn fung teui: The common whirlwind kick found in most systems. While some styles such as Choy Lei Faht like to lead into this with a tauh bouh "stealing step" or a crossover step, Hop Ga folks do this from a standstill or beginning with a simple foot stomp. Turns are 360 degrees for training purposes but for most applications only a half-turn is required.

Hok geuk: Although found also in Shaolin and other styles, this has become a kind of signature move for lama stylists. Reach both fists in front of your chest as far as you can reach while stepping forward and doing a straight heel kick. As the kicking foot begins its extension, drop and squat onto the standing leg while keeping the standing foot's heel on the floor. At the end of the squat the kicking heel is fully extended and remains a few inches above the floor. Now the fun part: without touching the floor with your hands, stand up again and execute a rising kick with the same extended leg. As you rise, your fists do a downward wing flap or seuhng deng "double nailing" technique overhead and to the sides of the body (this is often used to wrench elbows and shoulder joints). For strength and balance training this is done in slow motion and becomes the infamous "crane walk" forward and back across the training hall. For fighting, you stamp the standing foot onto the ground to catch yourself as you intentionally fall to the ground to stop or "take away" your opponent's legs. Follow up with ankle and knee scissors or other ground kahm nah methods.

[jdhowland]

I notice most of kaido's kick's you sink, rotate or rotate and sink depending how fast you are and then you swing the leg through the target creating room and a moment in time to follow up with another full body shot.

I never thought of it as "sinking." It's a good observation. In most kicks the standing leg adds power by extending slightly and moving the pelvis to accelerate the kicking leg. This implies that the knee of the supporting leg must first be flexed.

Good one on ya, James!

jd

[diego]

I never thought of it as "sinking." It's a good observation. In most kicks the standing leg adds power by extending slightly and moving the pelvis to accelerate the kicking leg. This implies that the knee of the supporting leg must first be flexed.

Good one on ya, James!

jd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LErs4...om=PL&index=87

so this at 1:18 his left foot twists and his right hip and leg hook into the target...he has no contraction in his left hip when he twists losing half of his torso weight while creating momentum before contact.

Kaido drops and sinks into horse stance which resembles the monkey kung fu posture which makes both hips tense and then the left foot twists while the whole body rotates bringing the right leg through in a cutting motion.

[diego]

so i'm going to post some pic's and I'm going through kaido's forms right now in slow motion on the dvd burner and man am I glad I didn't post the vid's online years ago when i had no idea what i was doing there is so much good **** in kaido's form any shaolin do ******* would make millions off his sets and combo's...

[diego]

http://img41.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=pdvd066n.jpg

Scroll the page from the bottom up.

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_NZF...e=channel_page

just a quick slide...screwed up the music lol.

[diego]

slash kick into tornado with some wave hands prior to..new Slick rick for you youngins...and old timers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzOXGu3AQP0

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2YCD...e=channel_page

back spin and slash kick...

[jdhowland]

One thing to keep in mind about Kaido's technique is that he studied Hop Ga for only a short time and had other influences to his system.

Kajukenbo stresses combinations of techniques in specific required forms, possibly a jujitsu influence. It's a good way to learn to flow, but it tends to create dogmatic requirements for progressing in a system.

In contrast, Hop Ga stresses only simple combinations, and when breaking down the kyuhn for study you almost never come up with a technique that is more than two moves in length.

To add to the difficulty in tracing the sources for Kaido's HG-Kaju, Hop Ga has no really unique kicks or combinations that are not found in other systems. I've learned some "horse breaking" footwork in the Hop Ga that I haven't seen in other schools, but I don't get out much. It might be common Ten Tigers material.

From the clips I would think that Kaido's moves look like CMA, while Kaju generally does not.

As a side note: a lot of gung fu stylists tend to put down the tendency for the various Hawaiian styles (Kenpo, Kaju, Ken Ka Bo,...) to practice lengthy combos against a training partner who only gets to do one move. You can't learn to fight that way. But, to be fair, it's only a way to teach students to flow and keep up the attack. Maybe only suitable for basic training. But individuals often rise above the limits of their schools. My sifu considered Professor Emperado to be a good fighter.

jd

[jdhowland]

Seung fei teui: The double flying legs or "butterfly kick" is so-called because of the way the legs reciprocate or "flutter." Common to most styles, with variations. One foot kicks forward; while retracting the foot, the back leg springs up to kick at a higher level, often before the first foot touches the ground. The first kick is used to feint or disarm while the second kick (usually a heel kick, in our style) has more power.

Chat sing geuk: The seven star kick as popular in Praying Mantis styles. Sometimes a method to stop or hold the opponent's leg for a simultaneous upper body attack. In our school it is a method to shift the body's mass forward in order to utilize a "dropping" energy. You do not have to advance very far. In fact it can be executed when retreating or pressed from the front. Always done with an accompanying hand technique, it can be a foot trap or stomp, as well. Practice by stamping your weight onto one foot while extending the other heel. If the front heel does not touch the ground, you are unbalanced and can easily be knocked down. If you hit too hard and bruise your heel, you don't know where the ground is and need more proprioceptive training.

jd