Hop Ga kicks/ attn: diego

[diego]

One thing to keep in mind about Kaido's technique is that he studied Hop Ga for only a short time and had other influences to his system.

Kajukenbo stresses combinations of techniques in specific required forms, possibly a jujitsu influence. It's a good way to learn to flow, but it tends to create dogmatic requirements for progressing in a system.

In contrast, Hop Ga stresses only simple combinations, and when breaking down the kyuhn for study you almost never come up with a technique that is more than two moves in length.

To add to the difficulty in tracing the sources for Kaido's HG-Kaju, Hop Ga has no really uniqe kicks or combinations that are not found in other systems. I've learned some "horse breaking" footwork in the Hop Ga that I haven't seen in other schools, but I don't get out much. It might be common Ten Tigers material.

From the clips I would think that Kaido's moves look like CMA, while Kaju generally does not.

As a side note: a lot of gung fu stylists tend to put down the tendency for the various Hawaiian styles (Kenpo, Kaju, Ken Ka Bo,...) to practice lengthy combos against a training partner who only gets to do one move. You can't learn to fight that way. But, to be fair, it's only a way to teach students to flow and keep up the attack. Maybe only suitable for basic training. But individuals often rise above the limits of their schools. My sifu considered Professor Emperado to be a good fighter.

jd

That's the thing with Kaido...he only studied for a short time Hop Ga but was 5'th degree BB under emperado...the thing is he was going to make his own Kajukenbo with the white crane on the patch my stepdad has one...money issues and politics came into play kaido dissed some kaju seniors and then quit...his major is kaju but the style he put together is white crane on the logo...i have to up some more slides in the next few days then we can get to the heart of this discussion.

cuz his forms are not kajukenbo, and his longfists are all over...cheers

[jdhowland]

That's the thing with Kaido...he only studied for a short time Hop Ga but was 5'th degree BB under emperado...the thing is he was going to make his own Kajukenbo with the white crane on the patch my stepdad has one...money issues and politics came into play kaido dissed some kaju seniors and then quit...his major is kaju but the style he put together is white crane on the logo...

Interesting. It makes me wonder if Kaido ever studied under Ronald Dong or his teacher, George Long. Long's style was a kind of hybrid of Hop Ga merged with Chan Hak Fu's white crane.

jd

[diego]

Interesting. It makes me wonder if Kaido ever studied under Ronald Dong or his teacher, George Long. Long's style was a kind of hybrid of Hop Ga merged with Chan Hak Fu's white crane.

jd

Prolly not but maybe...Kaido was in Montreal in 74, Ng Ming was killed 73, I'm pretty sure he moved there from San Francisco...didn't ron dong and george long not get much info they just made a bunch of stuff up?.

[jdhowland]

Prolly not but maybe...Kaido was in Montreal in 74, Ng Ming was killed 73, I'm pretty sure he moved there from San Francisco...didn't ron dong and george long not get much info they just made a bunch of stuff up?.

Long had some kind of falling out with Harry Ng and wasn't able to continue Hop Ga so he got in touch with Chan Hak Fu and bought into Chan's highly modified version of white crane. May have been something like an organizational affiliate to allow him to use the white crane name even though he didn't learn much from Chan. Ron Dong was strong and had good moves. I don't think they just made stuff up. They just didn't have a lot of material to work with. But a lot of Hop Ga is really pared down, too.

There was a San Francisco White Crane Association formed in the early 70s by mostly students of Teng Jak Ming. I still have my lapel pin. Long's school was not a part of it. Raymond Mah, William Siu and my teacher were in it. I think the Leung brothers were in Oakland and not in S.F. yet. When I asked my teacher where Ron Dong got his white crane he looked puzzled and said, "I don't know!"

Be well.

jd

[diego]

Long had some kind of falling out with Harry Ng and wasn't able to continue Hop Ga so he got in touch with Chan Hak Fu and bought into Chan's highly modified version of white crane. May have been something like an organizational affiliate to allow him to use the white crane name even though he didn't learn much from Chan. Ron Dong was strong and had good moves. I don't think they just made stuff up. They just didn't have a lot of material to work with. But a lot of Hop Ga is really pared down, too.

There was a San Francisco White Crane Association formed in the early 70s by mostly students of Teng Jak Ming. I still have my lapel pin. Long's school was not a part of it. Raymond Mah, William Siu and my teacher were in it. I think the Leung brothers were in Oakland and not in S.F. yet. When I asked my teacher where Ron Dong got his white crane he looked puzzled and said, "I don't know!"

Be well.

jd

hm...in the article you sent me it says kaido got it from Ng Ming...maybe he got it from them but I wasn't impressed with their pic's...kaido trained in the army they say...when he is 50 in the video his jumping and low sweep kicks look like a 22 year olds...he studied martial art in the Philippines with his dad as a boy...who knows


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZhqm...er_profilepage

so at the 00:02 second mark kaido does a simple kajuenbo style front kick to take out the knees...but then he sinks into a horse stance with a longfist uppercut to the groin and grip and rip hung ga style, but with the rear behind hop ga form...

then the vid goes into a two man set where the brunnette starts the form before the blond guy making it off...but it shows the slash kicks tornadoes and low sweep into striking.

gonna up some slide shows. When did RD and GL start teaching and publishing books?.

My teacher wasn't impressed with david chins books let alone george longs..again we do kajukenbo with some tech from ng ming...i'm geussing kaido was athug and partied with SF thugs and shared tech's, loved the white crane p[osture power...

[diego]

You'd think Kaido would have mentioned RD and GL in the article as their books were being published around then right...http://www.hygeia-design.com/Kaido/

[jdhowland]

hm...in the article you sent me it says kaido got it from Ng Ming...maybe he got it from them but I wasn't impressed with their pic's...kaido trained in the army they say...when he is 50 in the video his jumping and low sweep kicks look like a 22 year olds...he studied martial art in the Philippines with his dad as a boy...who knows...
When did RD and GL start teaching and publishing books?....

I didn't mean to suggest that Kaido did not learn from master Ng; only that he might have picked up some crane stuff in S.F. after Ng was killed, hence the associaton with the crane symbol.

The Ohara book was written by Mike Staples and Dong posed for the photos. Published in the early 70s. I bought a copy in '74 and was disappointed that it was not like what I was learning but it was well laid out and, for such a short publication, a good introduction to their style.

Long had an acupuncture studio in S.F. sometime before Ng Yim Ming arrived. I would be interested to learn if Long taught any gung fu before learning from Ng. Anybody know about this?

jd

[jdhowland]

You'd think Kaido would have mentioned RD and GL in the article as their books were being published around then right...http://www.hygeia-design.com/Kaido/

Nah. Kaido was representing Hop Ga in the article. GL and RD were definitely not affiliated with Hop. They were representing their own style of white crane. The magazine, as I recall, was not an Ohara publication so there was no reason for them to plug it.

jd

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/user/kajuhop#.../0/PDLjXX9Ev6c

new clip..all of these slide shows are from the 6'th set...Kaido has like 10-12 of these sets, I wonder how many forms he actually knew?. The like 5'th or 7'th set looks like lama needle in cotton but then it speeds up almost resembling som mantis with the twist stance and hook hand sow choy i think...

[htowndragon]

depending on who you ask, george long first learned from Chan Hak Fu before Ng Yim Ming. Other stories say otherwise. George Long, Jack Huey and my sifu David Chin were the first three people to Bai Si to Ng.

Long and Ng had a falling out, and Long taught his version of White Crane, which was the "Bak Hok Jung" (White Crane Sect) of Hop Ga. This was coming from Tony Galvin in a phone conversation, after discussion with my sifu, he says the same thing. Long's kung fu is no joke despite the politics

[jdhowland]

depending on who you ask, george long first learned from Chan Hak Fu before Ng Yim Ming. Other stories say otherwise. George Long, Jack Huey and my sifu David Chin were the first three people to Bai Si to Ng.

Long and Ng had a falling out, and Long taught his version of White Crane, which was the "Bak Hok Jung" (White Crane Sect) of Hop Ga. This was coming from Tony Galvin in a phone conversation, after discussion with my sifu, he says the same thing. Long's kung fu is no joke despite the politics

Hi, Htowndragon. I was hoping you would join in.

I never heard that Long knew Chan before his Hop Ga days. Could be. I heard those guys have a version of chyut yahp bouh. That takes a long time to learn and cannot be picked up in a few meetings.

Interesting that Long considered his white crane to be a part of the Hop Ga. This makes me wonder again whether Kaido had connections to his school or shared with some of his students.

I never saw Long, but Ron Dong was respected in the white crane community. I visited his school once and was impressed by the tough, hardworking atmosphere. Their punches looked like pure Chan Hak Fu style.

Too bad that RD has retired from teaching. He could probably shed some light on the George Long/ Hop Ga connection.

Be well.

jd

[jdhowland]

Slice kick: a scraping kick using the outside edge of the foot to cut across the shin. (Remember the old trick of sewing sharpened copper coins into the soles of shoes? Me neither. I'm not that old. But supposedly it was done.) With a good pair of "Beatle boots" like Bruce Lee used to wear, or my teacher's hard-soled dress boots, this kick could really do some damage. You can't train this one on a hanging bag; use a carpet covered post.

Pek: This is the hooking and lifting kick used in shuai jiao. Kicking surface is the yeung side of the ankle or shin. Featured as a signature move in "white crane skims water," this one is also used in Hop Ga to assist with throws.

Bai Lin: The "swinging chain" kick is the inside-to-outside crescent kick in our system. A very strong kick but relatively slow because of the need to build up power with body turning while flexing and then extending the standing leg. This is the lower limb equivalent of a sou cheui, with relaxed follow-through. For training, use the side bow and arrow horse. Kick with the arrow leg toward an area just forward of the bow leg. As you start the kick, suddenly swing your waist and upper body in the opposite direction leading the foot with the waist. Perform paak geuk by stretching both arms out in front of the chest, palms outward and the fingers of both hands facing the same way (fingertips pointing in the direction of the kick). As your flexibility and speed increase, you should be able to smack the shin against both palms. Finish by grounding the kick and assuming a bow and arrow to the opposite side; the kicking arrow leg becomes the new bow. Point the fingertips in the opposite direction, and you are ready to perform bai lin with the opposite side. For standing line drills, kick with the leg straight. This is also an excellent kick for training with a heavy bag, but bend the knee to protect the joint and to select targets. Some applications require you to have a hold on your opponent's arm while kicking to dislocate the shoulder or do damage to the lower rib area. The arc of the kick can also be modified to chop downward with the back of the heel.

jd

[htowndragon]

it is unclear what the kaido/harry ng hop ga connection was.

so far I've asked a lot of people from that time who would know, none of them ever recall seeing Kaido. Tony Galvin wrote that Kaido trained with Ng Yim Ming, but also told me over the phone he did not remember him, but it was only based on something someone said. It is possible that he did train, as ng's group was divided into two groups: his "real hardcore students" and his "young thug" group. I have only asked people from the first group, as the second group never really trained.

however, kaidos hop ga based on that article moves vastly different from any hop ga coming out of ng's line that i have seen, maybe because of the kajukenbo?


jdhowland may be right about the george long/ chan hak fu connection. i heard it differently from tony galvin, saying that he had learned some bak hok from chan prior to learning from ng. politics say that long "bai si -ed" into chan hak fu's line to gain legitimacy to use the "white crane" name. Suffice to say Long's white crane is separate from both the mainstream Chan Hak Fu line as well as the other descendents of Ng Siu Chung and is a hybrid between that and Hop Ga's "Bak Hok Jung" descending from Wong Yan Lum, Wong Hon Wing, Fok Hung, and Ng Yim Ming. Nothing wrong with that at all, things happen. By all accounts I hear Ron Dong is a tough guy. I also heard from Michael Staples that there was another "Ron" from the school known as "Big Ron" who would go out and fight against rival gangs, sometimes up to 4 on 1, just to test out whatever technique they were learning. Long's "burning palm" was his "trademark" technique and would raise welts on Staples arm by merely slapping. Tony Galvin trained with both George Long and my Sifu David Chin, as well as Ng Yim Ming.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE

=htowndragon;943200]it is unclear what the kaido/harry ng hop ga connection was.

so far I've asked a lot of people from that time who would know, none of them ever recall seeing Kaido. Tony Galvin wrote that Kaido trained with Ng Yim Ming, but also told me over the phone he did not remember him, but it was only based on something someone said. It is possible that he did train, as ng's group was divided into two groups: his "real hardcore students" and his "young thug" group. I have only asked people from the first group, as the second group never really trained.

I always assumed he was one of those who paid for lessons in the first group you mentioned, since I assume that one would have to be Chinese to belong to the second group.

however, kaidos hop ga based on that article moves vastly different from any hop ga coming out of ng's line that i have seen, maybe because of the kajukenbo?

I thought so too. When I bought the magazine I was interested in collecting anything written about grandmaster Ng and his style. But the descriptions and photos look more like exaggerated crane than any Hop Ga I learned. Why the low stances and wasted opportunities between the moves? I also wonder whether Master Chin ever gave permission for the article. It seems to me that he should have been the one to write it. It looks as if someone had planned to do an article on David Chin, but it didn't work out so they got other students to pose for photos.

i heard it differently from tony galvin, saying that he had learned some bak hok from chan prior to learning from ng.

If Tony Galvin said it, I believe it. Galvin was a first-hand observer. That beats biased speculation, anyday.

Tony Galvin trained with both George Long and my Sifu David Chin, as well as Ng Yim Ming.

I knew he trained with your sifu. Didn't know he learned from Long, as well. Thanks for the info.

jd

[htowndragon]

True on what you said about the second group, but that statement would be "mostly" true overall. I actually think Lau Bun taught more "gwai lo's" than Harry Ng ever did, Tony Galvin being the only known exception. Looking at all this overall, I do NOT know where Kaido fits in. Granted, he had to get those hands from somewhere.

As for the article, i don't think permission was ever granted, and my sifu never remembers even seeing that article! in fact when i sent it to him he was like, WTH IS THIS?!!! also said that he doesn't remember Kaido. Maybe he paid for private lessons or learned elsewhere? We may never know.

Tony went all over and trained with a lot of people after the death of our si gung, including Fan Chong Yip, Lung Wah, etc. in Hong Kong. Even trained a little with Ku Chi Wai. I saw the video that Tony taped with Ku. It was painful to watch.