How long a form should be?

[David Jamieson]

They should be long enough to contain the material that is to be imparted in that particular block of lessons.

try not to clump calculus in with basic math, try not to teach grammar to infants, etc etc. The analogies never run out!

[YouKnowWho]

if you are to practice combo or set up, the moves may be 3 to 5

I think 9 moves combo should be the maximum. In the striking art, the longest combo that I have seen was from the PM system. It contains 9 moves. In the throwing art, the longest combo that I have seen was from the SC system, It contains 7 moves. There may be longer combo that I have not seen. But longer than 9 moves combo may not make much sense IMO.

How many moves can you do by using "firemen's carry" as your initial set up? Not too many. After you have picked your opponent over your head, there won't be many fancy moves left for you to do after that.

[YouKnowWho]

It also depends on how many kicks that you have in your form. If you have flying side kick, spin back kick, double jumping kicks, tornado kick, double jumping crescent kick, 360 degree floor sweep, ... in your form then that form should not be too long.

[Yao Sing]

Right now I like tang lang chu dong, its about 60 moves long and takes just under a minute at full speed and I have to catch my breath afterwards. For me thats kind of the point, its like doing a round on the bag, if you finish and you aren't breathing hard, you aren't pushing yourself hard enough.

Respectfully disagree, forms should not be used for cardio work. They will give you a bit of a stamina workout but that shouldn't be the focus.

The reason I say this is because I've never seen anyone rush through a form and maintain clean moves. I believe you're ingraining sloppy moves into your body when you put speed over quality in forms practice.

I think you should go no faster than what's possible while maintaining the quality of the moves. Maintain the quality of moves in your forms and do something else for cardio.

[YouKnowWho]

I just believe that some of the "quality" in a Mantis set is the speed of the movement. Mantis performed slowly is incorrect for application and will not work.

Agree! When you shot a machine gun, you don't have to hit your target on every single bullet. As long as you can hit your target in any one of your bullets, the function of a "machine gun" has been achieved. Not many styles use this approach and that's for sure (people said that Baiji is like grenade, LF is like a riffle, and PM is like a machine gun).

By the way, long fist performed slowly is also incorrect. One time I did my LF form in slow speed, my LF teacher walked over to me and said, "It's better not to train your LF at all then to train your LF in slow speed."

There are some trade off there. A good product is not the product that has 0 defeat. It's the product that's the most affordable and with the least amount of defeats. The best CMA training is not trying to do everything 100% perfect but to do it in "combat speed" with the least amount of errors.

The PM system uses the opposite training method as the Taiji system does (slow training). It produces different result. Old saying said, "When a mantis attacks, it doesn't stop".

[Oso]

just one......

[Tensei85]

I'm more partial to 1 or 2 long forms (as mentioned before) that way it can be perfected over time and have a lot of material ingrained in the set. As opposed to 50 or more small forms, but I enjoy that as well.

[JackNate]

I don't practice Hung Kuen, but their "Lau Gar" set seems like the perfect length for a class full of students to drill through.

[AdrianK]

I just believe that some of the "quality" in a Mantis set is the speed of the movement. Mantis performed slowly is incorrect for application and will not work.

It honestly goes without saying that speed is important in every system.

Speed being a factor in how correct a form or set is, is ridiculous though. Am I more *correct* because I am physically more gifted? How does that make any sense?

[golden arhat]

from one thing know ten thousand things
make forms about that principle. one move, variations on that move, and the way to generate power while doing it which can transfer into other things you want to do

easy assimilation of knowledge helps for better fighting.

[bawang]

i think how long a form depends on the student. you learn one technique at a time, how long ur form gets depend on u

[mawali]

Nothing difficult about that!

I hit someone, elbow to ribs/ body. snake creeps down (fireman's carry) and slam to the ground. 4 moves give or take 2-3 add a kick and total=9. Even a 108 form has 37-42 'unique' variations and the rest is just repetition.
I do not believe in forms per se but concepts and principles as expressed in shuaijiao, judo or similar art has a lot more utility and function.

[Tensei85]

Its not ridiculous at all, tai chi sets all have a prescribed time frame in which they should be completed, usually with a few minute window. So some can move a little slower or a little faster, but in general everyone should finish around the same time. That would be the prescribed pace of the set.

Mantis has the same idea, but your window is reduced to a few seconds.

Beng Bu is 35-45 seconds.

Tang Lang Chu Dong is 50-60 seconds.

Hmmm,
That's interesting. I never heard of a prescribed time period for any Mantis sets other than the Shi Ba Luo Han Qi Gong form which lasts apprx. 1 hour.

But I guess it could be correct, now I'll have to see how long it takes me...

[Yum Cha]

Forms should be...?

Thats where I begin to think, hey, alot of forms are different.

Long ones up and down on the ground for strength, stamina and aerobic conditioning.
Short sprints of forms to build twitch reflex and anarobic conditioning.

Narrow focus medium forms that focus on a set of unique skills

Endlessly repetitive forms form training and meditation
Short combos for fighting techniques

Smooth fast round ones
rough choppy linear ones
slow relaxing warm down ones


I'm SO confused...

[Lucas]

then you also have things such as wu bu quan that, if you want, you can loop endlessly untill you just cant move any longer.

imo its situational/circumstantial