Just good body mechanics?

[Hendrik]

What other physical activities do you enduldge in Hendrik, any sports ?

Dont even have to get to sports or MA.

Just say, practicing SLT. Can you repeat an identical SLT every time you practice it? if not then why? same mechanics right? but why cant be repeat identically?

why do we not see advocates of internal MA's apply the same approach to sports they also do like football / swimming / Golf etc

Good questions and I dont know the answer.

[t_niehoff]

that is your assumption. Not what I said and certainly not what I do. hahaha

I rather use HRV, EEG....3D dyanamic analysis to fine tune mechanics according to my body.

You aren't "fine tuning" anything that way. You only believe that you are.

The only way to fine tune mechanics for a particular task is by performing that task itself.

How Optimal is Optimal when as basic as the Maximum Heart rate is not considered? hahaha. See, your mind says yes but you dont know your body says no.

There is optimimal body mechanics for performing a hip throw. That doesn't depend on your max heart rate.

Your thinking is very confused.

sure, take some drugs after you dont know what to do.

WTF are you talking about? Look, there are optimal mechanics for doing any task. Like a hip throw. Drugs have nothing to do with that.

[Hendrik]

You aren't "fine tuning" anything that way. You only believe that you are.

That is your speculation.

The only way to fine tune mechanics for a particular task is by performing that task itself.

why do you think the HRV EEG....ect is used?

There is optimimal body mechanics for performing a hip throw. That doesn't depend on your max heart rate.

Sure,

you havent seen those who cant even move thier hip without pain yet.

Your thinking is very confused.

I dont think. I describe what is going on.
you are confuse because you think and expect other to run in a certain direction.

WTF are you talking about? Look, there are optimal mechanics for doing any task. Like a hip throw. Drugs have nothing to do with that.

DRugs can do lots of stuffs including feeling invincible and num when one has a hip which is hurting. depend it is a pure pain killer or a illegal sport drug. hahaha

[Liddel]

What i dont get Hendrik is why you just spit out posted roadblocks without offering a counter argument related to the overall thread instead you offer silly snide remarks in an attempt to debunk an obvious ligitimate argument about body mechanics vs internal external approaches....

What in your opinion does someone with internal attributes have over a student without ?

How does an internal approach effect the results of the individual over a body mechanics mentality/approach ?

Specifics would be nice in the interest of a good hearty discussion

Offering banter about max heart rates and drugs is making you look like you have no leg to stand on at this point IMHO.

Just say, practicing SLT. Can you repeat an identical SLT every time you practice it? if not then why? same mechanics right? but why cant be repeat identically?

Not sure who or why it has to be identical - your arguing semantics because every fight is differnt moreover every person you fight is different and would behave different...

But in the interest in discussion LOL...

While in a sence one sequence of SLT would not have every action in exactly the same place at exactly the same speed etc etc the mechanics invloved putting actions out bending wrist elbows, contractiing muscles rising lowering turning IS MECHANICALLY THE SAME ...

Including every time you pick your nose, or stand up from sitting down to dinner LOL

DREW

[Mr Punch]

Love how T has started to hit the theory big time! You getting old, mate? Finally realising discussion boards are always going to be heavy on theory?

Anyway...

you quibble with 'engine' vs 'mechanics'. Sure body mechanics in fighting are task specific, but there is also internal body mechanics (by which I don't mean the hokey internal vs external - just integral to your body): e.g. you don't want to splay your elbows out, you don't want to hunch your back excessively etc, and with those 'reaction' mechanics (task based) and integral mechanics there are general rules and principles. That's all the 'engine' is to me. It may mean something different to you.

I'm gonna get the hell out of this thread now: it's too theoretical for my liking - got some training to do!

[anerlich]

Who patronize you?

You did. You insinuated you know more than i do about what and how I move now as to what I did 30 years ago, when we've never met and you have no perceptible qualifications or expertise in this area. Patronising

hahaha, isnt it shows how big your ego and then you go blind just trying to protect it with all the reasons ? hahaha

That is your speculation.

IMO you have much more work to do in this area then I.

Just say, practicing SLT. Can you repeat an identical SLT every time you practice it? if not then why? same mechanics right? but why cant be repeat identically?

Because of the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle, and quantum mechanics - reality is probabilistic, not deterministic. We do not live in Groundhog Day.

That's about as relevant to the discussion as all your blathering about drugs ... do you have some sort of fixation in this area? ... so I'll include it, though it's not really relevant.

[t_niehoff]

Love how T has started to hit the theory big time! You getting old, mate? Finally realising discussion boards are always going to be heavy on theory?

Are you saying that body mechanics is theory?

Anyway...

you quibble with 'engine' vs 'mechanics'.

Yes. The "engine" metaphor suggests that our body is like an engine, and produces power in one way (one body mechanic) that is then channeled to different tasks. That's not how things work. Rather, each task uses body mechanics specific to that particular task.

Sure body mechanics in fighting are task specific, but there is also internal body mechanics (by which I don't mean the hokey internal vs external - just integral to your body): e.g. you don't want to splay your elbows out, you don't want to hunch your back excessively etc, and with those 'reaction' mechanics (task based) and integral mechanics there are general rules and principles. That's all the 'engine' is to me. It may mean something different to you.

All those things you label "internal body mechanics" are things that every competent fighter, regardless of their art, does. So what makes them "internal"? How is keeping your elbows down and tight to your body some"internal" mechanic?

Certainly there are some commonalities (that you can call principles, even though I don't think that is a good way to think of them) involved in using our body optimally. For example, postural aligment permits us to achieve full usage of the body's potential whereas if we are mis-aligned, we can't optimally use our body. That isn't something unique to anyone -- all athletes recognize this. Calling these things "internal" or referring to an "engine" only adds layers to that which aren't necessary and act to take us away from the reality of it.

[Mr Punch]

Are you saying that body mechanics is theory?

No, I was suggesting that most things discussed on a forum relating to a physical activity are by nature theoretical.

Yes. The "engine" metaphor suggests that our body is like an engine, and produces power in one way (one body mechanic) that is then channeled to different tasks. That's not how things work. Rather, each task uses body mechanics specific to that particular task.

OK. While I agree with your description of body mechanics being task specific, I found your distaste over 'engine' quibbling. But fair enough, now you've explained why you dislike it it makes sense.

All those things you label "internal body mechanics" are things that every competent fighter, regardless of their art, does. So what makes them "internal"? How is keeping your elbows down and tight to your body some"internal" mechanic?

I explained this in my post. It is integral to your body: you can do those things (practising moving in a series of postures, keeping my elbows in, keeping my guard up) independent of anyone else.

To explain further: It only becomes task based when you add the other person. While the aim (for many modern MAists) is to become proficient at defending yourself, which of course relies on having someone to defend against and having more of a tested working task-based mindset (arguably), there are plenty of body mechanics which are useful to practise on your own at various stages of your development.

Certainly there are some commonalities (that you can call principles, even though I don't think that is a good way to think of them) involved in using our body optimally. For example, postural aligment permits us to achieve full usage of the body's potential whereas if we are mis-aligned, we can't optimally use our body. That isn't something unique to anyone -- all athletes recognize this.

I have never suggested otherwise.

Calling these things "internal" or referring to an "engine" only adds layers to that which aren't necessary and act to take us away from the reality of it.

As I just reiterated and hopefully clarified adequately, I was not using 'internal' in the old-school CMA way, but as one part of a training paradigm. Perhaps 'integral body mechanics' vs 'task-based environmental body mechanics) is a better way of thinking of it. All sounds like bollocks to me, hence my surprise at your starting this thread! What did you hope to achieve with this discussion, if anything?

[chusauli]

I think for the most part, all martial artists would like to model better mechanics (internal or otherwise) if they follow it for specific tasks (i.e. a goal in mind). I think "internal" a while back meant we keep it in the family, and we don't tell others. But I think it is all a set of good mechanics, regardless, for a specific task.

For example, when I have to learn to throw someone, I have to use throwing mechanics as opposed to striking mechanics.

Tai Ji is designed to yield, to take weight, then throw/push/joint lock people. WCK is designed to smother, engage, then disengage, take weight, control and strike. They are specific mechanics with different goals.

Without a goal in mind, we often flounder about.

A student tells me he wants to make a lot of money when he graduates from acupuncture school, so I ask him, "What does he consider a lot of money?"

"$10? $1000? $100,000 a year? It has to be specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, and timebound, otherwise it is pipe dreams."

So its is specific for all of us, and even task related as suggested by TN earlier.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think for the most part, all martial artists would like to model better mechanics (internal or otherwise) if they follow it for specific tasks (i.e. a goal in mind). I think "internal" a while back meant we keep it in the family, and we don't tell others. But I think it is all a set of good mechanics, regardless, for a specific task.

For example, when I have to learn to throw someone, I have to use throwing mechanics as opposed to striking mechanics.

Tai Ji is designed to yield, to take weight, then throw/push/joint lock people. WCK is designed to smother, engage, then disengage, take weight, control and strike. They are specific mechanics with different goals.

Without a goal in mind, we often flounder about.

A student tells me he wants to make a lot of money when he graduates from acupuncture school, so I ask him, "What does he consider a lot of money?"

"$10? $1000? $100,000 a year? It has to be specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, and timebound, otherwise it is pipe dreams."

So its is specific for all of us, and even task related as suggested by TN earlier.

Specificity rules

[Hendrik]

Body mechanics is a function of real time condition of the state of Body, mind, and environment.

I bring up the Maximum Heart Rate, The EEG....... because human are no Robot, the states and condition of the mind - body affect body mechanics.

But, how many willing to admit to the reality? instead of arguing for argument shake.


So what is internal training? in Today's langugare, the IMA, internal training is a training which takes components beyond the obvious Body mechanics into consideration to yield an effective result for REAL TIME and based on Individual. No more no less.

Why is it so difficult to accept those IMA technology exist?

Is those IMA technology GOD? certainly not. however, it does address important issues that most not aware of.

[t_niehoff]

Body mechanics is a function of real time condition of the state of Body, mind, and environment.

I bring up the Maximum Heart Rate, The EEG....... because human are no Robot, the states and condition of the mind - body affect body mechanics.

But, how many willing to admit to the reality? instead of arguing for argument shake.

Body mechanics are how you use your body (which includes your limbs) to perform a task. When we talk about optimal body mechanics we're referring to how to "best" (max certainty and min time/effort) use our body to perform that task. Objectively, that won't change -- so your heart rate or the condition of your mind won't change how to "best" do soemthing. As I've already indicated, there is, for example, an optimal way to lift a very heavy weight. That's not going to change because your heart rate increases or because of your mind. Physically, there is an objectively best way to lift a heavy weight. Who knows those mechanics? People who routinely lift very heavy weights.

Your approach isn't taking the task itself into consideration. You can hook yourself up to all kinds of machines, etc. but they can't tell you if you are performing the task optimially -- only performing the task can tell you that. Use the lifting the heavy weight example -- no EEG, heart rate monitor, etc. can show you or help you determine how to best lift a heavy weight.

So what is internal training? in Today's langugare, the IMA, internal training is a training which takes components beyond the obvious Body mechanics into consideration to yield an effective result for REAL TIME and based on Individual. No more no less.

Why is it so difficult to accept those IMA technology exist?

Is those IMA technology GOD? certainly not. however, it does address important issues that most not aware of.

IMA "technology" has not proved itself to be useful, it hasn't produced any significant results. To say that there is more involved that body mechanics is to state the obvious. Sure there is. But, by doing the task itself, you not only develop the mechanics, you develop the other aspects. This is standard athletic training. So why do we need internal/external nomenclature when we can just say "train like an athlete"?

[Hendrik]

As I've already indicated, there is, for example, an optimal way to lift a very heavy weight. That's not going to change because your heart rate increases or because of your mind.

one doesnt even have to go that far on Optimal way,

The reality is how simple the physical mechanics of man having sex is? brainless right and every man knows it right? but at certain condition, one needs Viagra to help to get the BASIC mechanics to work.

Not to mention the mind influence....

[Hendrik]

IMA "technology" has not proved itself to be useful, it hasn't produced any significant results.

sure, and you have never learn what is IMA to make that conclusion, isnt it ?

[t_niehoff]

sure, and you have never learn what is IMA to make that conclusion, isnt it ?

Hendrik, why are you being intellectually dishonest? That argument has been repeatedly demonstrated to be nonsense, yet you continue to cite it. A person doesn't need to study or practice something to be able to look at the evidence of its results.

Your intellectual dishonesty just demonstrates how you really can't offer anything else.