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Thread: Values and principles in Traditional Martial Arts Training?

  1. #1
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    Values and principles in Traditional Martial Arts Training?

    The Martial Arts represent many things to different people.

    I like many of you get a great thrill from the beating to senseless of the other human-beings (especially the “drunken-ed untrained” LOL!) but seriously I am curious what it means to you the various members of this Kung Fu discussions forum.

    While working long hours over the last week I began to reflect on my experiences here in this life and on this forum, I am reconsidering what Kung Fu represents in my life and weather or not I am served by my dedication to it.

    Many of us that contribute here are practitioners of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and weather you’d agree or not the concepts of Kung Fu (time, practice, patience and hard work) are not limited to any one particular national art or style.

    Is your practice of martial science purely about the violent suppression & domination of another human being or is there something deeper? What values and principles surround and govern your practice if any? Be careful how you answer here or I’ll get lkfmdc to Bas Rutten your a$$es right here and now!


    In the pursuit of excellence in the study of Martial Arts I began to search for the deeper meaning embodied with-in the harmonized training and teaching techniques of our system.

    Through my consistent daily personal practice I began to heal old nagging injuries and I discovered many a psychological revelation. Kung Fu as a vivifying exercise morphed into a powerful spiritual path acting as a catalyst to discovery in spiritual practices and esoteric trainings. Some may say that this path “produces crazy” but I argue that it simply produces a powerfully alternate world view.

    My Sifu taught and shared with me to be successful as a martial practitioner to humble myself as I promote and advance the martial arts as a means for individuals to achieve self-betterment, self-discovery, and self-discipline through the extended practice of kung fu.

    I have great respect for my teacher not only for his martial art skill but also for his wisdom, experience and patience in taking his time to uplift me via his discipline and doctrines.
    The word “sifu” as many of you know is translated as “teacher-father” in English. This is a very foreign concept to most westerners because of our overly competitive nature. We are taught to value ourselves highly, but this may also prove to be an impediment towards learning, as it is sometimes difficult for us to humble ourselves enough to learn from others.

    My own teacher carefully explained to me the sacrifices he himself had to make in order to learn the martial arts. He then explained that his teacher had taught him in the same tradition.

    In the discipline of the traditional Chinese martial arts we expected that all students abide by the traditional relationship between martial arts master and student.

    In seems that in modern day society, we are taught to value ourselves, sometimes to the detriment of others. Reverence toward a teacher is rare and sometimes we may even be defiant or resentful of this relationship.

    I believe that these teachings deserve deep reverence as over time they will enrich and uplift one’s life for the better. How can one truly respect the teachings if one does not respect the teacher? Below I list a series of guidelines my teacher suggests in his mission statement to our group:

    VALUES AND PRINCIPLES
    Teach the art to anyone regardless of age, sex, race, color, or nationality who is willing to learn and have no motives to defame and disrupt the class or issues of the art for unethical and/or illegal purposes.

    Spread the teachings of the art via the most efficient and economic means thereby reaching as many willing students as possible.

    Present the martial arts in all aspects. i.e., as means for self-defense, sport, physical training, philosophy, entertainment, performance, science, health, healing, discipline, meditation, mental development, confidence building, sportsmanship, art, history, culture, etc.

    Cultivate the martial arts as a vehicle for developing friendship, teamwork, communications and cooperation, and not as means for dominance, suppression, control and undue influence over others.

    Present the art in its most realistic form refraining from trickery, myths, deceptions, and supernatural claims.

    Produce students that appreciate and understand the martial arts but not necessarily be experts or champions.

    Develop successors who can carry the responsibility of continuing and expanding the missions and principles of the class by proper teaching of the art and most important of all, the philosophy and ethics.

    Continue to better the Northern Shaolim style of martial arts via the processes of actual practice and applications of the teachings leading to re-evaluation, discovery, and understanding.


    I feel that the practice of a traditional, well rounded method of instruction is an especially good system for training and inspiring young people. As I look around I find the youth of today devoid manners or respect. Respect for their teachers and elders and respect for themselves. I hope through my efforts as a teacher to raise the bar for them and to help make them better people. The martial arts training taught with proper values and principles will bolster a child's self-confidence and will channel the child's (an some adults) energies into constructive and useful action.

    In my philosophy Kung Fu is much more than a vehicle for mere fighting. It is a vehicle for the cultivation of self-control, as well as self-defense. When a child learns self-control and self-discipline no goal can possibly remain out of reach. The road to mastering Kung Fu is a difficult path, one that is also extremely rewarding. In the physical world, the individual learns to control the body through the forms and the techniques. By controlling the body he learns to discipline the mind and to strengthen the connection of the mind with the body to push the body beyond endurance, through determination and sheer will power. In this union of mind and body, the rewards are potentially limitless. Through the growth experience of Kung Fu training we learn more than just how to defend ourselves, we learn the steps to becoming a positive, constructive, contributing member of society.

    So friends what values and principles have you learned that you teach and live by?
    Last edited by Lokhopkuen; 07-03-2009 at 06:43 PM.
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  2. #2
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    A well pointed reminder

    Great thoughts.

    I believe that those who see the only measure of a martial art as the ultimate fighting ability are simply mesmerised by shadows on the cave wall, and have missed more than they have understood.

    Martial arts has given me 35 years of gifts, many well beyond the fighting skills.

    However, my answers are not your answers, nor are my questions likewise. That's the beauty of life.

    And lets not forget this is just a bit of a babble fest, and the glimpses we get of each others personas are usually not the whole story, with a few obvious and notable exceptions....

    What makes for good conversation and debate isn't always the whole story.
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  3. #3
    The idea prevelant among many so called TCMA people is that if you actually fight, somehow you don't have values

    It's a straw man argument

    My group, my school, my family has a lot of values, ritual, family, community, discipline, respect, history, tradition and lineage

    We just don't want to be those who make flowery moves in the air and have no ability to fight

    MY senior student got married today, spent time with him, his family, and a bit of the extended family. His good friend became a student of mine recenty, and the good friend's father is an old school kung fu guy I spent a good part of the day talking to

    I told him, I wanted to leave the politics and BS of Chinatown and the old school TCMA crowd, I wanted to leave the nonsense of today's kung fu crowd. I didn't leave my lineage or my teacher, or the principles.

    I was very happy today, I feel very close to my senior student. I was so happy to be at his wedding (his wife used to train with me also).

    Being traditional never was supposed to equal being a form fairy
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    The idea prevelant among many so called TCMA people is that if you actually fight, somehow you don't have values

    It's a straw man argument

    My group, my school, my family has a lot of values, ritual, family, community, discipline, respect, history, tradition and lineage

    We just don't want to be those who make flowery moves in the air and have no ability to fight

    MY senior student got married today, spent time with him, his family, and a bit of the extended family. His good friend became a student of mine recenty, and the good friend's father is an old school kung fu guy I spent a good part of the day talking to

    I told him, I wanted to leave the politics and BS of Chinatown and the old school TCMA crowd, I wanted to leave the nonsense of today's kung fu crowd. I didn't leave my lineage or my teacher, or the principles.

    I was very happy today, I feel very close to my senior student. I was so happy to be at his wedding (his wife used to train with me also).

    Being traditional never was supposed to equal being a form fairy


    Nowhere in the above did I say anything was wrong with fighting. I'm a fighter bro in case you were wondering where my head is at. Although my main focus is my work as a martial art teacher, I make my real living as an executive protection agent working with a list of high exposure clients. On good days it's smooth easy money but every once in a while one of my favorite suits gets ruined.

    A great portion of the individuals I instruct are law enforcement, military and other folks with jobs where they put their life on the line for a living. One of my biggest thrills is when one of them comes to me and says thank you, your teachings helped me survive an ugly situation. Most of my students are just average Joe's that come for the workout and to learn some of the dirty fighting that is my speciality. I also get a big thrill watching a guy who came in completely uncoordinated come back from a competition with a first place trophy. These are some of the thousands of reasons that I live eat and sleep gung fu.

    I posted my thoughts on this subject because I personally am seeking something higher that just the ability to beat the crap out of someone. I got good at that 30+ years ago.

    Truth told Master Ross is I have great respect for the aspects of the martial arts that you are currently promoting. My group has several days out of the week where we gear up and apply our learnings in free fighting. We punch kick grab and throw probably very much the way your fellows do at your place. I teach restraint and compassion along with the eye gouges and groin strikes because what teacher wants to see one of their students on the 6 O'clock news or the FBI's most wanted list?

    I have read a great deal about the philosophy and spirit of the martial art.
    I have gleaned benefit above and beyond being able to KICK SOME A$$.
    Maybe maturity is catching up with me, I don't know. I know I took a couple of playful jabs at you in the above sir, I'm just funnin' and getting a kick out of stimulating some conversation about my favorite topic.

    As you were
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  5. #5
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    I think all that you have written certainly applies. especially in context to using martial arts training as a lesson in values, ethics and mores.

    It is mostly beneficial at the levels where the student does not yet have a depth of understanding of things such as courtesy, manners, social norms, behavioural standards etc and is seeking or is by proxy seeking to be that which can be defined as "upright" in society.

    Martial arts training, that fits into the religious or military styles is definitely a useful vehicle for this aspect of growing up.

    To foist this upon an adult who already comes with a whole set of ethics, mores and so on, be they slightly different or not can only lead to conflict.

    If you start attempting to destabilize the already established world view of someone by seeking to substitute your own for theirs, even if it's similar is almost always taken as an action of attempting to control another and will lead to the loss of that student unless there is substantial demonstrative reasons for them to stay.

    If all the ethics and mores can't be demonstrated readily, then it starts to fall apart.

    For instance, if a teacher was to say "it is good to be charitable, it is good to help others" but then says in another breath "school x is garbage" or "that guy is cheap and he gave us a lousy hong bao for our lion dance", and this DOES happen, then the teacher themselves comes across as a font of empty platitudes when these types of things are said or done enough.

    The pattern forms and the adult student readily see the problem whereas the child student will continue to heed the words and not really be aware of the actions seeing as they are shut out from most of it anyway.

    So, both who are involved have to be ready to really understand what those morals and ethics and so on represent and is there cultural context? Are we dealing with morals and ethics from an entirely different culture? Are we dealing with chronological context? Quite often, in context to tma schools we do not have either cultural context or chronological context. and these behaviours become anachronistic as you grow in the practice of them.

    there are large portions of tma practice that in martial context are pretty much useless because they've been padded into the curricula of various styles and schools over the years as a ways and means to build up material and keep students paying longer and in the tutelage longer.

    seriously, do you really need anything more than 2 or 3 years to get in touch with your body and learn to use it in h2h? I don't think so. I think you could refine it of course over the years that follow, but long and large systems of kungfu practice that try to present themselves as "martial arts" are counter to the reality of their existence in many ways.

    antiquated weapons for instance can't be anything more than a mere hobby practice by definition of weapons standards today.

    the sportive aspects have use, bt many tma simply refuse to extract that part of their style and go way to heavy on the dance card portion of the study.

    I'd personally like my martial arts to have context to today's world and today's world doesn't include performance art aspects so much as it demands readily usable tactics, methods for strength and conditioning development and methods of steeling the mind to be able to use said tactics. these things can be found in tma to be sure, but so much dross and trim has to be removed to get to them.

    in my opinion. [/rant]
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  6. #6
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    Lokhopkuen,

    You probably have said it all on the topic. I hope you don't mind if I keep a copy of your post in my library. Let us do our best to support these TMA values and principles.


    Regards,

    KC
    Hong Kong

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveLau View Post
    Lokhopkuen,

    You probably have said it all on the topic. I hope you don't mind if I keep a copy of your post in my library. Let us do our best to support these TMA values and principles.


    Regards,

    KC
    Hong Kong
    I'd be honored brother thank you.

    I posted the above as a question to the various Masters and practitioners whom post here in hopes of eliciting alternate or parallel perspectives.

    I can not take any credit for the above as I am simply repeating the learnings from my teacher who is a wise man and as great as I am small.

    I'll state for the record I am simply a daily practitioner and a seeker of the higher truth and my humility is sincere in spite of my often less than politically correct reactions to various contributors on these forums.

    Diplomacy is one of the priorities on my to-do list
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

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