To WCK practitioners: Who burned down the Fujian Shaolin?

[Hendrik]

I understand that the Cho family fused CLF and WC.

Frankly, I was not particularly impressed with the versions of WC from SE Asia that were put up on You Tube a while back.

As far as I can tell from the standpoint of concepts : Ip man's wing chun and CLF are world's apart. I have seen good exponents of CLF.

joy chaudhuri

There are different version of WCK within Cho family.

The idea is suppose to be "those who has master SLT could mimic other's external shape and make it works " however, the problem is if one has not master SLT and also not master CLF. That becomes a mess.

[Vajramusti]

There are different version of WCK within Cho family.

The idea is suppose to be "those who has master SLT could mimic other's external shape and make it works " however, the problem is if one has not master SLT and also not master CLF. That becomes a mess.

__________________________________________________ _______________________

I have nothing but the deepest respect for doing slt and admiration for it's assistance in doing non wc motions. But why have CLF as part of a regular curriculum?? Family historical reasons?

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

__________________________________________________ _______________________

I have nothing but the deepest respect for doing slt and admiration for it's assistance in doing non wc motions. But why have CLF as part of a regular curriculum?? Family historical reasons?

joy chaudhuri

Joy,


It is mean to do WCK with CLF shape to take advantage of the boomerang effect or the let go Let God flow.

A small boomerang and a large boomerang are both boomerang.

and, large or small both has its beauty,


It is like a song, one can sing the same song lots of ways creates lots of different beutiful music and keep the same soul.


The problem comes when one doesnt know how to sing and end up with making lots of noise.

[chusauli]

There are different version of WCK within Cho family.

The idea is suppose to be "those who has master SLT could mimic other's external shape and make it works " however, the problem is if one has not master SLT and also not master CLF. That becomes a mess.

This is a very good concept, as WCK practitioners can adopt any system. When you are in the center, and your mind is in the center, you can move freely in all directions.

[chusauli]

CLF Noi Liem Sao and Hung Ga's sticking bridge arms have much in common. Its quite possible the Cho family found the connection here. All three systems share a lot in bridging and sticking in high levels as Southern Chinese fist.

The advanced CLF set of Fut Jeung uses palms strikes like we do in Siu Nim Tao. Many of the Hung Ga fist sets have the same or identical palm strikes we use in WCK.

[Hendrik]

From the Taiping's history part, we can see the Heavenly king's activity with Dien Dee Hui and Lee Man Mau. also the involvement of She Da Kai ( Chen Hueng (CLF) was his combat advisor).

Thus, this also confirm the Taiping, opera group, CLF.... connection in 1850s. the picture is clear.



花县志及洪秀全故居、纪念馆的资料及由花县政协文史资料委员会整理编写的《洪秀全生平大事年表》记载：18 53年（咸丰三年，太平天国三年），39岁的洪秀全于当年3月攻克南京，改天京为首都。5月，命令太平军北 伐、西征。冬，颁布《天朝田亩制度》。

1854年40岁，与天地会首领陈开、李文茂商讨研究围攻广州，进军广西，建立大成国。

1855年41岁，派石达开率太平军在江西湖口、九江大败曾国藩湘军水师。


1843年7月，洪秀全劝人拜上帝，除去书塾的孔丘牌位，宣传不拜偶像，不行恶事，冯云山是最早信从者之一 。次年4月，与洪秀全等同往广州、顺德、南海、番禺、增城、从化、清远、英德、阳山和连山诸县，开展拜上帝 会的宣传活动。

[Hendrik]

Robert,


More on what happen in 1850. and become even more clear how things evolve. It

For 1850 era, it even goes as far as pointing out Ng Mui is Leong Lan-Kui's nick name. Yes the Leong Lan-kui of the red boat.

Jee Shim is the leader of the Hung kuen (this Hung Kuen is more likely to be the CLF or Choy Gar Hung Kuen.. Thus again Jee shim could be very likely to be the Nick Name of Chen Hueng.)

and

in this period of time, 1850's Shao Lin Temple is the nick name of The Keng FA Wui Koon or the Jade flower opera association. and indeed the Jade flower opera association was burn down by Qing army. and the Opera members fleet.








天地会于乾隆后被列为反清组织，明令禁止，违令者死。其流传之野史被广东洪门组织所承认，因为避满人之猜忌 ，改名为“三合会”。1848年后，有关三合会的会薄（洪门会册）传说，据称一福建渔民于海底 所获。

两广的洪门组织于太平天国起义后（1851年），互相联络结盟、组织成三合会，曾于琼花会馆的红船中会议， 发动两广（特别在大城市，如广州及佛山）的大武术团体中成立堂口，训练洪兵。

得悉太平天国定都南京后，1854年，三合会李文茂及洪兵起义，引起清廷火烧琼花会馆及所有红船。之后三合 会则传出火烧（南）少林寺的传说、说当时的不同门派（南拳）都源出福建少林寺之少林五老，目的是将原来不团 结的武术团体组织一起，共同反清。

两广三合会会薄记录：“其时（福建）少林寺(指三合会)，武风甚盛，招清廷忌，派兵围捕，攻而不下。适有新 科状元陈文维者，邀宠献议，设法勾通寺僧马甯儿等，四处纵火，里应外合，少林寺(佛山琼花会馆)被毁，僧徒 四散。

于是五枚师太(梁兰桂)与至善禅师(洪拳领袖)、白眉禅师(东江拳领袖)、冯道德 (冯云山?－太平天国联络人)、苗显(广州花拳首领)等五人亦分途出走。



形成背景

由于清朝之锁国政策，引起英国在华之贸易入超非常严重，英国商人以鸦片输华，赢得可观利润。但感国人受毒害 ，最终导致林则徐1839年的虎门销烟及鸦片战争。林则徐知道英国人会用军舰攻粤报复，一早已经组织好广东 各乡镇地区之民兵团，特别是三江流域及海岸，屯守海卫，称为团练。

鸦片战争后，林则徐被罢免，道光21年4月（1840年5月下旬），奕山与英国人订立《广州和约》。驻守在 广州城北的四方炮台英军，与村民发生冲突，发生三元里抗英事件。引起各乡绅村民对清庭之无能与英夷之侵略非 常愤怒。[1]

1843年，南京条约签订后，开放了五口通商，英国人要求有进入广州城内的权利。广东城内绅士民众一致坚决 反对，表示倘夷入城，呜鼓攻之。由于耆英的无能及恐英的态度，更加迫使广东城内人民对满清地方政府怒狠。他 们曾啸聚数千人．．．带刀械，冲进知府衙门．．．火其署．．．等。

1848年后，有关三合会的会薄传说，据称一福建渔民于早年在海底捞获原洪门会册。

鸦片战争失败后，国人感觉到清政府积弱，反清团体三合会开始壮大，引来太平天国起义。及后1854年两广之 各个三合会同时起义，成立大成国。其时的洪门人士，多来自广东三江流域。不幸的是因为大成国因攻取广州城失 败，使到叶名琛对洪门子弟大开杀戒。导致英法联军入侵广州时，叶名琛亦不主张动用民间团练。

英国派遣额尔金于1857年12 月中，联合法军发动占领广州战争，由于叶名琛认为英法联军不会从陆路攻击，没有防御之打算。不理番禺南海各 界招募乡勇之议，导致广州城迅速陷落。反而英军沿途遭到各乡勇自发抗战。广州于12月29日沦陷。英法成立 委员会监督满清官员柏贵复职。柏贵治理广州期间，英军曾搜查多处团练机构，此举更加深了各乡镇洪门人士对清 廷及英人之不满。

1858年，英军入城后，有关的社团及会党为了自保，加入三合会的地下活动，后参与革命党。

[编辑] 上海广东帮派－小刀会

1849年，经营糖业和茶丝生意的香山人刘丽川，来到上海，建立同乡会《广肇会馆》，他是著名的小刀会首领 。当时广肇帮中以香山人最多，人数有两万多。小刀会起义失败后被清政府焚毁。可见广东帮派传入 上海。

[Hendrik]

More and CLF, Chen Hueng, Hung Kuen ( Different then Hung Gar), Jee Shim..... Red bandana,, Red army.





笔者以掌握的资料分析认为，蔡李佛的“洪圣”（鸿胜、雄胜）起源与清代洪门（本名天地会）有渊 源关系：

其一，陈享的师辈是佛派洪门中人。

陈享的蔡李佛，是跟蔡福、李友山、陈远护３位大师学习后，“投合化之，自成一家”（陈享《〈蔡李佛技击学〉 之自序》），始创的一门独家拳术。又据陈享所著《蔡李佛技击学》的自序可知，取名“蔡李佛”是为纪念３位恩 师。他这几位师傅是著名佛派南拳的传人。

蔡福传的是“蔡拳”，蔡拳由福建南少林寺蔡伯达、蔡九仪所创。蔡福别号青草和尚，为清朝廷所忌，被焚寺后逃 出，烧成“烂头和尚”（花名），隐居广东罗浮山，是洪门人物。有说陈享初设武馆称“洪圣”，亦是蔡福所命名 。

新会七堡人李友山传的是“李拳”，师承至善禅师。相传李拳是福建南少林寺僧、洪门重要人物李色 开所创。

陈享族叔、佛门陈远护传的是“洪佛拳”，师承肇庆庆云寺独杖禅师。据蔡李佛传人解释，洪佛拳是“洪门佛家拳 ”的简称，并非来自小说人物洪熙官。

这３种南拳起源与福建南少林寺有关，也由该寺的僧人传开。这几大南拳不仅是武术门派，也是活跃于广东、福建 沿海一带的江湖派别。南少林派与洪门一脉相承，有天然关系。

其二，蔡李佛拳招式诀嵌“反清复明”。

陈享将蔡李佛拳套路的动作招式编成一首椿礼诗诀，其中将“反清复明”４字分拆，嵌入每句的第五个字：（据蔡 李佛传人陈忠杰《蔡李佛椿礼释义》）

“魁星踢斗反天乎，

大鹏展翅清名留。

供拜五湖复四海，

日月拱照明当头。”

“反清复明”是洪门的目标、高扬的旗帜。

其三，陈享秘密支持师兄、洪门的陈松年反清。

清咸丰元年（１８５１），广东各地以洪门（天地会）为主体的红巾军响应太平天国起义。清咸丰四年（１８５４ ），以陈松年、吕萃俊为首领，赵泰来为军师的新会天地会红巾军（又称“洪兵”）于江门狗山“扯旗起义”呼应 ，攻占了江门，又围攻会城６０天。据蔡李佛始祖纪念馆编印资料，陈享秘密支持陈松年。

其四，陈享投身太平天国革命（１８５１－１８６４）。

众多蔡李佛弟子加入太平天国起义军队伍。广西苗族人龙子才是陈享的首徒，其弟子冯云山是太平天国的南王。陈 享还于清咸丰六年（１８５６）亲赴太平天国翼王石达开那里当幕僚，协助训练将士。

洪门痛恨外族入侵，既反清，更打击帝国主义的侵略。太平天国初期，大量洪门队伍加入太平天国革命，因为他们 的目标是一致的。又由于洪秀全称洪天王，因姓氏关系被洪门人看作洪家真主，因而积极响应。

　其五，“洪圣”似洪门会语。

　蔡李佛口号“洪武至圣，英雄永胜”，即以“洪武”为最高神圣，使英雄永远得胜，形式类似洪门会语，带洪门 色彩。

洪门的“洪”指朱洪武，天地会反清复明，捧出明朝开国皇帝朱元璋的年号“洪武”。洪门以“洪”字为标志，“ 出手开声不离洪”，称洪家、大洪门，挂洪圣王肖像，供奉洪圣大帝，其广东总机关称洪顺堂，广西 有洪德堂。

其六，“天下洪圣是一家”与“天下洪门是一家”如出一辙。


秘密组织的洪门因避免引起清廷注意，会名不断改变，如天地会、添弟会、小刀会、洪莲会、三合会、三点会、清 水会、致公堂……等等，它们实际上仍旧是洪门，因此称“天下洪门是一家”，而蔡李佛的口号“天下洪圣是一家 ”与此极为相似。

洪门的诞生、发展在当时有着积极意义，它曾支持太平天国革命，支持孙中山辛亥革命，是一个斗争性很强的秘密 团体组织，是后来才分化了。

张炎威名化“鸿胜”

清道光（１８２１－１８５０年）中页至咸丰年间（１８５１－１８６１年），蔡李佛从创立至迅速扩大，也正值 洪门会党蓬勃兴起、蔓延发展时期，此时广东成为全国洪门的中心地区。陈享在清道光十六年（１８３６年）首先 在家乡开办洪圣武馆。道光二十五年（１８４５年）以后，先后指派门徒分赶本县的２６条乡村和广州、南海、佛 山、中山、番禺、东莞、开平、台山、恩平、鹤山、肇庆、江门、广西浔州等地，开设４４间“洪圣武馆”，弟子 绝大多数是农民、小手工业者、小商贩、店员等。在太平天国革命失败后，蔡李佛朝纯粹民间武术组织的方向发展 。陈享的得意门徒张炎成功拓展蔡李佛，是其中最有代表性的一个

[Hendrik]

From all of the above, eventhough they are from different sources -- CLF, Qing History, Jade flower opera association history......

We can see the big picture clearer and clearer........




Some one like to do brief translation to english? Please do it.

This is a very meaningful task for those who is investigating WCK history.


Rene, Robert,

If you are here. See, we know Keng Fa and Ip's burning of Ken Fa long ago, but then we dont suspect. Burning of Keng Fa is what Burning of Shao lin refer to. and Ng Mui at this period of time is Leong lan-Kui of WCK. Now it get real close to home.

Want to write another article?




To WCner, all of the above is not to insult anyone but to bring up what is the facts at the 1850 era , what happen, what means what, and to see clearly who influence what.

such as
Tan Sau Ng in this case belong to the 1700 period . So we dont applied wrong person in wrong period of time....

[donbdc]

Why is this history so important? As My Seef would say who cares who taught Jerry Rice to catch a ball? I really don't believe ther is any way of finding it out either. Bottom line: how does this affect your training? Will you be a bettewr fighter when your done translating and reading this or that. It's a waste of time!
Train, work what you know.
Just my 2 cents
Don Berry DC RKC

[Hendrik]

Bottom line: how does this affect your training? Will you be a bettewr fighter when your done translating and reading this or that. It's a waste of time!
Train, work what you know.

Your reasoning is based on an assumption of your art is a complete one.

History is the key to help one find their missing piece and settle the direction of their training.


Train without a clear direction is similar to driving without a destination.

[donbdc]

Thats a load of crap used to sell mystical BS. Bimechanics are biomechanics, humans can only move so many ways. WC is a system of body mechanics used for stand up or ground fighting it is complete, it's the users who fall short. There is no secret kungfu power from the past, some secret scroll thats going to allow you to walk through walls! You have watched too many Shaw Bro. movies.
Go train, touch hands, knock each other on the ground and try to get up or bash them on the ground. It's all in the forms and drills.
Don Berry, DC, RKC

[chusauli]

Don,

Some people have an interest in history, others don't.

I think its cool to know your roots. Others don't care.

To each their own...

[JPinAZ]

Thats a load of crap used to sell mystical BS. Bimechanics are biomechanics, humans can only move so many ways. WC is a system of body mechanics used for stand up or ground fighting it is complete, it's the users who fall short. There is no secret kungfu power from the past, some secret scroll thats going to allow you to walk through walls! You have watched too many Shaw Bro. movies.
Go train, touch hands, knock each other on the ground and try to get up or bash them on the ground. It's all in the forms and drills.
Don Berry, DC, RKC

Don, you hit the ball out of the park on this one! And, yeah it does sound like a load of crap to me too
The proof is in the art itself - in the concepts and principals, drills, forms, etc, not the past. If someone thinks there is something missing, that could just be they don't understand the system itself. For those that don't train or fight (like Hendrik), it makes sense to dig around looking for secrets.

Your reasoning is based on an assumption of your art is a complete one.
History is the key to help one find their missing piece and settle the direction of their training.
Train without a clear direction is similar to driving without a destination.

I haven't found WC to be missing anything. I'm sure there are plenty of other's here that would agree. That must suck that your understanding of WC has so many holes in it and you have no direction in your training. Maybe why you got dumped on your a$$ by a chi sim practitioner at a seminar.
Keep digging in the dirt for dinasours, I'm sure you'll find some skills in that pile of bones someday...

[donbdc]

I love history! IN fact if I am not reading technical stuff thats what I read. As for Tv it's usually on the history chanel.
I have read your and Rene's books and love them. So yes I am curious about it too but it will not change my practice of WC: thats my point!
Some people act like their Sifu or Yip Man for that matter was on the moutain top w/ Moses and got some secret scrolls! THe quest for the secret foot work or some other BS. It just drives me nuts.
But I am glad, very glad there are qualified people, such as yourself who take the time and do the laborious work and research this stuff.
So thanks, but Hendrick is a nut!