Originally Posted by donbdc
Thank You for your opinion.
Best Regards
Registered User
Thank You for your opinion.
Best Regards
Junior Member
Thank you Don for your kind words.
Hendrik is not a nut. I think people just don't get him because of his communication style. His writing in Chinese shows a well educated, thoughtful, insightful, and speculative scholar. None of you here are his equal in this respect.
Yes, his posts go way over most people's heads, especially those not fluent in Chinese and the historical period, but a lot of this has been discussed on Chinese language martial arts forums.
Choy Lay Fut through Jeung Yim and Chan Heung were involved heavily in that incident, as was Lee Man Mao of the Chinese Opera Boats, and if put through the time period, Leung Lan Gwai, Wong Wah Bao and Leung Yee Tai were also present. In fact, all the Opera Boat founders of WCK were there. Lee Man Mao instructed those without operatic costumes to wear a Red Bandana around their waist to distinguish who was part of the revolution to overthrow the Qing. (Sound familiar?)
The mention of the fact that "Burning of the Southern Shaolin" is more of a code word that means "Qing destroy/burn the King Fa Hui Opera" which is more related to the time period of the Tai Ping Tian Guo of Hung Xiuquan. Code names such as "Ng Mui", "Jee Shim", "Fung Do Duk", "Mew Hin" , and "Bak Mei" were used also there. Perhaps there is part speculation, part inference, linking this incidence with historical fact...Hendrik has also suggested that code names "Ng Mui" was Leung Lan Gwai, "Jee Shim" was Chan Heung, etc.
At any rate, this more than answered my original question, "Who burned down the Fujian Shaolin Temple?"
Need verification, sources, and more research..., (Chinese don't footnote well) but also a great picture in history,,,
What if our ancestors were there?
What an exciting period!
This would be a great epic book and movie!
"Hung" does not refer to Chu Hung Mo/Zhu Hong Wu, founder of the Ming Dynasty, but rather Hung/Hong Xiuquan, founder of Tai Ping Tian Guo.
Tai Ping Tian Guo and Hung Mun (Tien Dae Wui/Tian Di Hui) at that time had joined forces.
Registered User
"Hung" does not refer to Chu Hung Mo/Zhu Hong Wu, founder of the Ming Dynasty, but rather Hung/Hong Xiuquan, founder of Tai Ping Tian Guo.
Tai Ping Tian Guo and Hung Mun (Tien Dae Wui/Tian Di Hui) at that time had joined forces.
Robert,
That is the root. and most people doesnt know this, thus, they link to 1644's falling of Ming.
That create confusion.
上善若水
Hi Hendrik,
Just a correction.
Earlier you said:
"1,
It is clear now that the Hung army is not the Hung Army of Ming Dynasty. But the Hung Army of Taiping. "
However according from the text quoted above which i bolded, Hung is
really referring to Zhu Hung Wu (Yuan Zhang), founder of the Ming Dynasty,
which his beginning year is Hung Wu, and who is also known as Hung Wu Da Di.
Registered User
木叶,
For me, when the qoute says 捧出, brought out, means it is no longer serving Ming Dynasty as in 1644's anti Qing when Ming Fall, but brought out in the Era or 1850 which is serving the Taiping Heavenly KingDom.
上善若水
Hi Hendrik,
I read in the beginning you said there is no shaolin involvement in Wing Chun.
Read carefully below and you will see that Wing Chun was originally developed
in Shaolin's Wing Chun Hall, which was destroyed, and Wing (永） Chun was renamed to same sounding Wing （咏）Chun to hide the art from the Manchurian authorities.
Extracted portions of text from http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/me...threvealed.php
I added in the bold styling and red chinese text.
-----
Secrets in the Shadows of Shaolin
As near as history can testify, Wing Chun was developed around 400 years ago in a time of civil unrest. Between 1644 to 1911, the Manchurians ruled China, where 10% of the population (the Manchus) ruled over 90% of the population (the Hons). To maintain control over the Hons, the Manchus ruled with an iron fist. Aggression and oppression were the cornerstones of the Dynasty and the Hons were banned from using weapons or training in the martial arts. Thus, in order to overthrow their oppressors, rebel activity was instigated by martial arts masters in hiding.
Rebel activity developed rapidly in the Buddhist monasteries, which were largely left alone by the Manchus out of respect for the Buddhist culture and religion. These Shaolin/Siu Lam（少林） sanctuaries were ideal places for renegades to conceal themselves - they simply shaved their heads and donned the monastic robes of the disciples of the temple. During the day, the rebels would earn their keep by doing chores around the temple. At night, they would gather to formulate their plans to overthrow the Manchus.
Upon meeting, the revolutionaries identified themselves to each other with a secret hand-signal that would come to be the formal greeting or courtesy of Wing Chun. In fact, the traditional greeting or courtesy common to many of today's kung fu styles has two meanings. The first meaning recognizes the style's Shaolin origins - the left hand symbolizing the union of the Green Dragon （青龙） (the left hand) and the White Tiger （白虎）(the right hand), the fighting animals of the Shaolin monks.
In the Hung Fa Yi (Red Flower Righteous) Lineage of Wing Chun, however, the hands are reversed: the left hand forms a fist and the right hand is open palm. It still retains its significance to Shaolin but it also refers to the secret society. In this context, the fist represents Yat （日）(the Sun) and the palm represents Yuet （月）(the Moon). Combined, these two characters mean "Bright" which reads and sounds like "Ming" （明）。 This is the name of the previous Dynasty - the one overthrown by the Manchurians who formed the "Ching" Dynasty in its place. Hence, during the time of rebellion, when a Wing Chun practitioner or secret society member saluted with a fist and open palm pushed toward you, they were saying "Return the Ming, overturn the Ching." （反清复明）Obviously, this was not a sentiment shared by the Manchus.
Late in the 1600's, the Manchurians became concerned about the Siu Lam Temples' rebellious activities and their continual development of the fighting arts. Therefore, they sent spies (many of them Manchu military leaders) to infiltrate the rebels and learn the traditional Southern fist systems as taught secretly in the Temples. The rebel kung-fu masters, realizing this, clandestinely developed a new system that was two-fold in purpose: firstly, it had to be learned quickly and efficiently, and secondly, it had to be devastatingly effective against the existing fighting systems that the Manchus were learning and teaching to their soldiers. Thus, Wing Chun was born.
Their spy rings compromised, the Manchus decided to eliminate the threat of spreading rebel activity by simply exterminating the Siu Lam monks. Eventually, the Southern Siu Lam Temple was burned and destroyed.
Extensive research conducted by the Ving Tsun Museum points to a generation of inheritors following the Southern temple's burning. Among them was a gentleman named Cheung Ng (referred to as Tan Sao Ng in other texts). Of this generation of inheritors, Cheung Ng is one to date that has proven to have historically existed. After establishing the Beautiful Flower Society Association (the precursor to the Red Opera and the public name for the Red Flower Society) and providing Wing Chun training to the secret societies, Cheung Ng went into hiding, disappearing from the public eye to escape Qing Dynasty persecution.
He was hidden by distant relatives, a Fuk Gin business family named Chahn. The Chahn Sih Sai Ga (Chan family) were well established and wealthy. Through indirect action they were willing to help Cheung Ng. Staying with the family for over a decade, Cheung Ng taught the family the art of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. It was preserved by the family for four generations before it was taught to outsiders. The direct members of the Chahn family were never directly involved with the secret societies themselves, resulting in a low profile in Praise Spring Boxing history. The last generation of the Chahn family to learn the art was a distant nephew, a high level secret society leader, Huhng Gan Biu. In Qing archives as well as historical research into Chinese secret societies, a person by the name of Chahn Biu was recorded as the leader of the Heaven and Earth Society. He was caught and executed by the Qing authorities. Due to similar names appearing in difference sources at around the same timeframe, there is much debate as to whether the Opera's Biu and the Heaven and Earth Society's Biu were the same person. According to members of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun clan, Huhng Gan Biu was the 4th generation leader of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun clan and his Wing Chun descendants have preserved the system through to the 8th generation Master Garrett Gee and his 9th generation students in today's modern era.
It was at the fourth generation that history and truth parted ways and the myth of Wing Chun's origins was created.
The Myth of Ng Mui and The Truth About Yim Wing Chun To protect the identities of the creators and the perpetuators of the Wing Chun system, a smokescreen was thrown up in the form of a story - the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun.
The legend was told that among the survivors of the Shaolin/Siu Lam massacres was a Buddhist nun named Ng Mui. Ng Mui was believed to have been the sole custodian of a streamlined, highly practical and effective martial arts developed within the temples. In turn, Ng Mui is said to have passed her knowledge onto her chosen disciple, a young girl named Yim Wing Chun. As Yim Wing Chun taught the system to others, it became known as Wing Chun. The story spread and today many versions of it exist around the world.
With regards to the Yim Wing Chun element of the legend, consider once more the relevance of secret rebel societies. `Yim' （严） can be translated to mean `prohibit' or `secret.' The term `Wing Chun' referred to a geographic location - the Siu Lam Wing Chun Tong （永春） (Always Spring Hall), where the rebels perhaps practiced martial arts and orchestrated their seditious activities. The use of the term Spring symbolized the rebirth of the Ming Dynasty and Always referred to the reestablished dynasty lasting forever. After the destruction of the Southern Shaolin temple and its Wing Chun Tong, the survivors changed the character of Wing from Always to Praise. The term Praise referred to the fact that the revolutionaries had to spread the word about the revolution after the destruction of their base. Thus, `Yim Wing Chun' was actually a codename, meaning (protect) the secret art of the Wing Chun Hall.
Enter the Hung Suen （红船）
We do know that many (not the legendary five) monks and rebel leaders escaped the Manchurian massacres and that, to aid the secrecy of the system, historical material was passed directly from teacher to student. Thus, the elders told of two Siu Lam monks/rebels who survived the temple raids and were able to keep their Wing Chun system alive. One of these was a monk, a 22nd generation Siu Lam Grandmaster, Yat Chum Dai Si from the Northern Shaolin temple. The other was a rebel training under him in the Southern Temple, named Cheung Ng. Fleeing the Manchurian persecutors, Cheung Ng founded the Kihng Fa Wui Gun (Beautiful Flower Society), the roots of the (in)famous Hung Suen (Red Boat) Opera Troupe.
Historically, we know that rebel activity flourished in the Red Boat Opera Troupe. The Red Boats allowed talented stage performers, accomplished in kung-fu and gymnastics, to form their own secret societies to overthrow the Manchu Dynasty. The Troupes provided the ideal sanctuary for fleeing rebels as the performers wore elaborate costumes and stage make-up, providing excellent but natural/plausible disguises for them. Additionally, the performers adopted and were known by their `stage-names', further cloaking their secret identities.
When Cheung Ng founded the Opera Troupe he became known as Tan Sao Ng - not only a stage-name but also a sly nod to his skillful deployment of the Wing Chun deflection/striking technique, Tan Sao.
An important fact to note is that so suspicious of the Manchus and their spies were these secret societies, that the true identities of the leaders, members and real nature of their activities were known only to an inner-circle within the society. Thus, genuine knowledge of kung-fu was passed only from a master to select, trusted disciples, thus protecting the purity and origins of the system.
Registered User
Hi Hendrik,
I read in the beginning you said there is no shaolin involvement in Wing Chun.
Read carefully below and you will see that Wing Chun was originally developed
in Shaolin's Wing Chun Hall, which was destroyed, and Wing (永） Chun was renamed to same sounding Wing （咏）Chun to hide the art from the Manchurian authorities.
木叶,
The article has a great idea however,
Which Shao Lin? which Wing Chun Hall? where? When? who? and what is the DNA of the art the Wing Chun is develop from? all of these must be able to be trace right?
Gen Qi Gi-Kuang of Ming has made a summary on the martial art of China in 1500.
It makes a big different if it is 1644, 1720, or 1850's.
上善若水
Hi Hendrik,
You are correct.
To clear the confusion, Taiping Tian Guo's army is led by Hung Xiu Quan,
the surname "Hung" is not to be confused with the Hung Men/Tian Di Hui's
wording. I believe they are 2 different organisations altogether.
Thanks.
Registered User
I like to discuss this because the more we get into it the more we all would be clear.
if we some how mistakenly think what happen in the 1850 and 1644 then there is where we get into confusion.
1644 is about Ming and Qing .
1850 is about Taiping + Mung Men and Qing.
Eventhough the term Hung is brought up again, however, these are two different events and lead by totally different motivation. One is to restore Ming, the other one is to support Taiping or even build their own kingdom as in Lee Man_Mao's case.
The people involve, the martial art involve are also different.
In 1644, the martial art involve in big scale were White Crane of Fujian and lesser scale The art of DOng Chan (painful Zen) an ex Shao Lin monk. One can trace these in Taiwan, since the zone of fire at this period of time is Fujian , kwan xi, and Taiwan.
In 1850, the martial art involve in big scale is CLF or Choy Gar Hung Kuen (different then Hung Gar), White Crane of Fujian, ( Both CLF and White Crane of Fujian have followers who become the official of Taiping.) in Keng FA hui kwon or fine jade flower opera association or the Red boat opera association Leong Lan Kwai of WCK beside Lee Man Mau Who is also a White Crane follower are the lead.
then at lesser scale such as the Cho Gar of Puun Yee Canton with Yik Kam, Dai Ngan Soon or Cho Soon as lead,
One can trace this from Canton, Kwan Xi, Shang Hai, and Nan Jing or the path of Taiping revolution.
IMHO, WCK doesnt exist yet in 1644. SLT was created in mid 1700, and WCK is created around 1830's.
Last edited by Hendrik; 08-04-2009 at 11:59 AM.
上善若水
From Wikipedia:
The Taiping Rebellion was a large-scale revolt in China from 1850 to 1864, during the Qing Dynasty, by an army led by heterodox Christian convert Hong Xiuquan. He established the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom (Chinese: 太平天國 pinyin: Tàipíng Tiān Guó), namely Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace with its capital at Nanjing and gained control of significant parts of southern China, at its height ruling over about 30 million people.
---
Clearly the revolution has nothing to do with Hung Men Tian Di Hui's goal
of toppling the Qing Dynasty and to revive the Ming Dynasty. (反清复明）。
---
I think i need to sleep, hehe misinterpreted Hendrik's previous post about liking
to discuss more to post this.
Last edited by -木叶-; 07-17-2009 at 01:14 PM. Reason: Add a joke?
Junior Member
木叶, Mu Ye or is it Ye Mu?,
During the time of Tai Ping Tian Guo, the Hung Mun joined forces with Hung/Hong Xiu Quan, thinking the alliance would allow them to overthrow the Qing.
Taiping Tian Guo controlled all of the riverboats, including the Red Boat Opera...
Hendrik shared how extensive the territory they controlled during its height of power.
The story here is quite plausible - it certainly shows what our Opera Ancestors might have been involved with during their non-performance times.
Registered User
Robert,
You see, until we dig this reality of 1850 up, most people are thinking the 1644 anti Qing at the falling of Ming dynasty incident.
You see these experience of 1850's starting with the Opinium war and wars after wars within a sixteen years perior or so must be very tragedy and sad, so deep the grief that the the martial artists choose to forget or leave a blank in the mind. It seems that no one wants to remember. May be because they all lost after millions of people die ? All the heros such She DA-kai of Taiping, the Lee Man-Mau, either executed or sick and die in the revolution, most of the elite Chinese in the south wipe out, clean.
The vanishing of the elite chinese at that time also setting up for the born of the modern China with big western influence. perhaps this is china's karma, one needs to clean the tea pot before making new type of tea.
I have thought lately,
Perhaps, What I did to reveal all of these facts are wrong. This is because sometimes it is better for others to live within their sweet dream.
Life is just an illusive dream anyway. So why not let those love sweet dream to continous dream on? at least give that will give them some future hope and they will feel more meaningful to live.
So, perhaps this is the end of this facing of reality posts. for most would not be able to take it and not neccessary needed to take it.
Last edited by Hendrik; 07-18-2009 at 10:21 AM.
上善若水
Mu Ye
Yeap i certainly do not disagree on the points, newbie to this part of history
Junior Member
Nothing is right or wrong. We can look back know and see what happened.
I think the Qing oppressed the Southerners and caused a great deal of resentment. When the uprising failed, anguish and suffering were the norm. Death by executions and torture were amongst means of extracting information from the lowly to get at the leaders. The stories became convoluted over time, giving rise to many myths, and misconceptions. That was a painful era. Also, many put faith in Hong Xiuchuan to lead them. However, he was crazy - he declared was God's Chinese son and Jesus' brother, and freely interpreted the Bible for his own use. Tai Ping Tian Guo, also incorrectly referred to as a "Christian" uprising..."Heavenly Great Peace Kingdom it was not.
The period in which Wong Wah Bao and Leung Yee Tai lived in, the Opera was banned. Leung Jan allegedly took care of them. After the ban was lifted, Wong Wah Bao went back to the Opera. Others scattered....leaving the seeds of WCK to be eventually passed to us.
It was a painful story in China's past.
Registered User
What a bunch of dung.
"Harmonizing one's true identity through Time, Space and Energy" - Hung Fa Yi Grandmaster Garrett Gee
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