Seperating drills from practicallity

[mjw]

I have noticed over the years that a lot of people have problems seperating drills (usually used for development) and actual practicallity of ving tsun/wing chun techniques for use in a street fight etc.

What are other peoples thoughts?

[Vajramusti]

I have noticed over the years that a lot of people have problems seperating drills (usually used for development) and actual practicallity of ving tsun/wing chun techniques for use in a street fight etc.

What are other peoples thoughts?

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You asked- so-IMO_
Often the product of poor teaching and learning .

joy chaudhuri

[Knifefighter]

I have noticed over the years that a lot of people have problems seperating drills (usually used for development) and actual practicallity of ving tsun/wing chun techniques for use in a street fight etc.

What are other peoples thoughts?

Because 99% of people have no idea how to train for street/self-defense fighting, most of all the guys who do not realize the vital role that competition plays in this type of training.

[grasshopper 2.0]

I think competition has a role but not neccessarily a determining factor in one's ability with regards to self defense. Would a sport shooter fair better than a green beret? Would an Indy 500 racing champion fair better than a cop in a neighbourhood car chase? Would your champion toast master win the election for US presidency?

Maybe they would...but at the same time, many would also fail too. Too many variables to say for sure.

[Knifefighter]

I think competition has a role but not neccessarily a determining factor in one's ability with regards to self defense. Would a sport shooter fair better than a green beret? Would an Indy 500 racing champion fair better than a cop in a neighbourhood car chase? Would your champion toast master win the election for US presidency?

Maybe they would...but at the same time, many would also fail too. Too many variables to say for sure.

Full contact competition against an opponent whom you don't know and who is trying as hard as he can to hurt you is vital to effective self-defense training (and just one of the many variables neglected by the "self-defense" crowd).

There aren't any other controlled situations that can give you close to the same adrenaline dump you are going to get in a street/self-defense fight. Being able to perform under the stress of that adrenaline dump is one of the factors of effective street/self-defense training.

[grasshopper 2.0]

Ya the options are certainly limited. I agree with that. There's gotta be a way to drill against a resistant partner..ya? Without having to go into a sparring situation - perhaps as a bridging mechanism to introduce the person into the sparring setting..

I have "sparred" with mma guys. I've sparred with mma guys who are hardcore at it and those who are like me - 6 hours a week, on and off, casual training. Of course, the hardcore guys are..well..hardcore. But the guys at my level were so-so and it was an eye opener for all of us, given the popularity of mma. I think drills have their place, as with sparring. But again, both are pieces of the puzzle, not the all encompassing solution.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

One of the ways we used to try and ramp up the adrenaline/unpredictability level in partner drills was to do "eyes closed drills."

Stand facing your partner, an arm's length from their body.
Agree on what the drill/training situation will be.
Both of you stand casually, relaxed, arms at your sides.
One person closes their eyes, readies themselves ("empties their mind"), opens their eyes, and reacts to their partner.

The other person pays close attention to the moment their partner opens their eyes. This is like their starter's pistol.
When they see their partner open their eyes, they launch an attack according to the agreed drill/situation.

Generally, it's a good idea to start with simple, single attacks. Then a gradual progression into full force attacks, combo attacks or different scenarios can happen.

This drill helps ramp up the pressure because you're being attacked the moment you open your eyes, and don't have time to consciously process the scene. It significantly trains and develops the reaction response of the right side of the brain, and depending on the level of training, trains the left side as well.

As with any training, there is always the caveat that training does not equal actual experience. This drill, however, went a long way to helping me bring relevance to my previous training, if for no other reason that I quickly learned not to "plan" moves, working with the reality of the situation instead.

P.S. As the level of pressure and realism goes up, so does the level of risk. We had a saying:
"If you break your partner, you don't get another one, so take care of the one you have."

[Knifefighter]

Ya the options are certainly limited. I agree with that. There's gotta be a way to drill against a resistant partner..ya? Without having to go into a sparring situation - perhaps as a bridging mechanism to introduce the person into the sparring setting..

I have "sparred" with mma guys. I've sparred with mma guys who are hardcore at it and those who are like me - 6 hours a week, on and off, casual training. Of course, the hardcore guys are..well..hardcore. But the guys at my level were so-so and it was an eye opener for all of us, given the popularity of mma. I think drills have their place, as with sparring. But again, both are pieces of the puzzle, not the all encompassing solution.

Not sparring... competitive, full-contact fighting against guys you don't know who are trying as hard as they can to hurt you as badly as they can.

Training in the comfort of your studio will never come close to the adrenaline dump you will get by competing in full-contact venues.

[t_niehoff]

Because 99% of people have no idea how to train for street/self-defense fighting, most of all the guys who do not realize the vital role that competition plays in this type of training.

You often hear from the fantasy guys that "this is for street, not sport" (one of the many give-aways that you are dealing with a fantasy guy), and a commonly held MYTH among people who don't fight is that sport is somehow a lesser form of training. In reality, it's just the opposite. The sport model, which includes competition, has PROVED itself to be a much, much superior from of training than anything else. Sport has and continues to produce world-class level fighters, continually expanding levels of performance, etc.

[mjw]

You often hear from the fantasy guys that "this is for street, not sport" (one of the many give-aways that you are dealing with a fantasy guy), and a commonly held MYTH among people who don't fight is that sport is somehow a lesser form of training. In reality, it's just the opposite. The sport model, which includes competition, has PROVED itself to be a much, much superior from of training than anything else. Sport has and continues to produce world-class level fighters, continually expanding levels of performance, etc.

I do agree very much so however the training of some of the eye gouging, leg destruction kicks (as in straight to the knee) etc. which is part of VT/WC as well as other arts can also save your ass in street though that is also only part of the pie at the end of the day but nothing to be left out in my opinion.

[Knifefighter]

I do agree very much so however the training of some of the eye gouging, leg destruction kicks (as in straight to the knee) etc. which is part of VT/WC as well as other arts can also save your ass in street though that is also only part of the pie at the end of the day but nothing to be left out in my opinion.

LOL @ the myths of the leg destructions and eye gouges.

[t_niehoff]

I do agree very much so however the training of some of the eye gouging, leg destruction kicks (as in straight to the knee) etc. which is part of VT/WC as well as other arts can also save your ass in street though that is also only part of the pie at the end of the day but nothing to be left out in my opinion.

In my experience, most of that stuff -- the eye gouging, leg destructions, etc. -- is low-percentage, high-risk stuff that generally isn't reliable. Anyone who depends on that stuff as part of their game is training to fail.

Most of these things simply can't be trained realistically (you can't really eye gouge or break your sparring partner's leg), and because you can't train them realistically, you can't develop the ability to use them under realistic conditions (in fighting). They can only be practiced under unrealistic (nonfighting) conditions. That is the advantage of sport training: you can really do/practice those things you do in the sport.

And while "foul tactics" can be used effectively in limited situations, the ability to use them depends on having solid fundamentals (the non-foul stuff). Once again, the stuff comes from sport-type training.

[mjw]

In my experience, most of that stuff -- the eye gouging, leg destructions, etc. -- is low-percentage, high-risk stuff that generally isn't reliable. Anyone who depends on that stuff as part of their game is training to fail.

Most of these things simply can't be trained realistically (you can't really eye gouge or break your sparring partner's leg), and because you can't train them realistically, you can't develop the ability to use them under realistic conditions (in fighting). They can only be practiced under unrealistic (nonfighting) conditions. That is the advantage of sport training: you can really do/practice those things you do in the sport.

And while "foul tactics" can be used effectively in limited situations, the ability to use them depends on having solid fundamentals (the non-foul stuff). Once again, the stuff comes from sport-type training.

I agree though the "foul play" techniques shouldn't be just put aside and should be trained as well so those tools care in your tool shed of tools to use when needed. At the same time a palm strike to the head can be used instead of the ingers to the eyes etc.

[AdrianK]

Conceptually - literal translation - interpreting.... i guess the biggest difference between you and i would be i talk about my own specific experience and actual application rather than what a word may mean or how its understood.

Well absolutely, your personal experience and application is far more important to your fighting abilities than a broad, sweeping definition. I meant it only that no one has any real authority in saying what is and isn't lop sao, because of the extreme differences in opinion between lineages and teachers.

Using / applying Lop Sau as a grab is IMO not a good idea, which is why KF's call about looking to people who's grabbing is better, is good advice IMO.

It really depends on what Lop Sao is to you, and what other concepts mean to you as well. Your application of Lop Sao, without a grab may be more similar to my application of a different concept.

When I personally talk about Lop Sao, I talk about the concepts behind grabbing. That doesn't mean that it is WC Lop Sao either, it is just what I use to describe a grab, and everything I know about grabbing, regardless of style. I use Pak to describe a parrying motion and not the movement itself, thats my personal expression of such.

When posting about Kung Fu or Wing Chun speciffically i reccomend using direct experience and application rather than what you think people from a hundred years ago intended or what word its accosiated with...it'll make for a smoother ride

Sure, all that matters really is your personal experiences and understanding of how to utilize your body and abilities. Whether that means you grab or you don't grab, whether you parry or not, how you define it is up to you. But when speaking to an entire community, you need to keep in mind the diverse opinions on such vague term.

How does ones understanding and use of the term 'Wing Arm' (or insert translation here) help them get the timing structure and energy involved in using Bong Sau ?

I would say that understanding the term will allow you to see that its a variable and not a set motion. It really depends on how you look at your Wing Chun, or Martial Arts, though. I use the broad, sweeping definitions to give myself room to find all of the variable ways to apply each idea. The movements themselves are templates, ideas of good ways to utilize the concepts, but I don't think they are the only ways, or the best ways for each and every person.

Regardless of what one thinks it means, how have you been taught to USE it ?
Do you apply it like a grab ?

I've had several WC Sifu, I've been taught to use it many different ways

I think the split here is that we're speaking in the same terms with a different understanding of each. I use Lop to describe a segment of knowledge that involves grabbing - which includes all grabs and grabbing methods, concepts, ideas that I've ever learned from various styles and such, and anything I've come up with, as well. I don't use it as a means to describe a specific technique.

I don't "Apply" Lop Sao as anything other than a method for understanding how my body works. That goes for all WC concepts. After that, in sparring or fighting, you will see the expression of what I find effective.

That is when IMHO, there is no lop sao, pak sao, or anything like that. It is simply what my body expresses naturally based on how I've trained and my understanding of things.

Do I have an understanding of a guiding hand similar to the Lop Sao technique found in many WC lineages? Absolutely. Do I grab in the traditional Lop Sao way which you find ineffective?

I know what you mean by the Lop Sao Grab you find ineffective, I honestly agree, its very weak for me. I think most of our differences come more from what I use to describe things, they get mixed in with expressions that most people have very different ideas of.

[grasshopper 2.0]

You often hear from the fantasy guys that "this is for street, not sport" (one of the many give-aways that you are dealing with a fantasy guy), and a commonly held MYTH among people who don't fight is that sport is somehow a lesser form of training. In reality, it's just the opposite. The sport model, which includes competition, has PROVED itself to be a much, much superior from of training than anything else. Sport has and continues to produce world-class level fighters, continually expanding levels of performance, etc.

I understand the logic....so ur saying that an olympic tkd competitor is a more capable street fighter than say a krav maga practitioner?

I agree that sport and competition can create one hell of a fighter. I just think there still exists a missing link between that and street fighting and that the two can not not be directly related although a relationship would exist.