Seperating drills from practicallity

[dirtyrat]

You guys that advocate fighting with someone that is trying to hurt you, is that what you do? You know, if you did have any real experience outside the ring with actual fighting, you would know that each fight is going to be a completely different scenario, and that you will not be able to actually learn anything. You will only be able to apply what you have already learned. I think most of you have already stated a time or 2 that in a fight you tend to forget everything and just start fighting, so how the heck are you going to learn at such a time? I know that none of you are actually fighting. If you were, you would not be here arguing on this forum. You wouldn't have time. So you do all your fighting here.

There is truth to this. The topic of self-defense and violence is a HUGE one. A lot a guys seem interested in just learning to fight a guy one on one. But the parameters of real world violence goes far beyond what can be learned in training for the ring. I feel fortunate to have classmates and instructors who are in the law enforcement and the military as they gave me valuable perspective on the subject.

[monji112000]

There is truth to this. The topic of self-defense and violence is a HUGE one. A lot a guys seem interested in just learning to fight a guy one on one. But the parameters of real world violence goes far beyond what can be learned in training for the ring. I feel fortunate to have classmates and instructors who are in the law enforcement and the military as they gave me valuable perspective on the subject.

fighting more than one opponent isn't a smart idea. granted you can't always avoid it .. How can you expect to fight more than one opponent, if you can't fight even one opponent?Its interesting I had this conversion with a seal two days ago.
Everyone trains with law enforcement.. its no big deal. I train with cops, sheriffs, seals, marines ect.. They have no secret to wining a fight, and the places they run too are all "competition" geared schools. To be honest with you more BS martial arts gets put into law enforcement and the military.. then probably any MCdojo on the planet. Some of the stuff I see that they come in doing... its scary!

[dirtyrat]

fighting more than one opponent isn't a smart idea. granted you can't always avoid it .. How can you expect to fight more than one opponent, if you can't fight even one opponent?Its interesting I had this conversion with a seal two days ago.
Everyone trains with law enforcement.. its no big deal. I train with cops, sheriffs, seals, marines ect.. They have no secret to wining a fight, and the places they run too are all "competition" geared schools. To be honest with you more BS martial arts gets put into law enforcement and the military.. then probably any MCdojo on the planet. Some of the stuff I see that they come in doing... its scary!

True. I'm just saying that one on one should not be your sole focus in training. Multiple opponents is just one other variable you could face. Things change when other factors are thrown in such as weapons, the type of weapons, the surprise factor, the environment you find yourself. Its goes on and on. The perspective I gained from my LEO friends is not so much the MA techniques but the experience that they got in dealing with the situations they find themselves. Of personal interest to me is how they use psychology in some situations.

[monji112000]

True. I'm just saying that one on one should not be your sole focus in training. Multiple opponents is just one other variable you could face. Things change when other factors are thrown in such as weapons, the type of weapons, the surprise factor, the environment you find yourself. Its goes on and on. The perspective I gained from my LEO friends is not so much the MA techniques but the experience that they got in dealing with the situations they find themselves. Of personal interest to me is how they use psychology in some situations.

I agree there are many elements that are not present in a "sport" competition. Surprise is one such element. Weapons training.. I personally have not seen any realistic method for dealing for knifes.. but yes those are also elements. BUT the core skill/body/ect.. is still there. That core is still going to benifit from competition and competition training. I emphasize the training more than the competition.

I can see how psychology would be a factor. I have also been told by friends that contact sports, in particular grappling, have a very profound psychological effect. I have felt this, but it was a surprise to be told by other people. You are pushed to near death, fighting literally for you life.. lets keep it real here.. you give me any other sport or activity that give you that psychological advantage. Kickboxing.. sure but there is something to be said about choking someone till there body givesout and fighting for your life while being choke unconscious.

It changes people. I have been told time and time again by military and police.. that this alone is one of the best preparations for what they do.

Just think about it.. how many people can say I have fought for my life? Not a fight, but were someone is trying to KILL me. Were only by there kindness at the last second I'm not dead or permanently injured. I have, and I do several times a day. Nobody can tell me that this won't greatly effect me in self-defence.

[Graychuan]

Weapons training.. I personally have not seen any realistic method for dealing for knifes.. .

In what context are you talking about...I find this hard to swallow. Can you elaborate? After all, aside from the club or stick.....the blade is probably the oldest type of weapon.

[monji112000]

In what context are you talking about...I find this hard to swallow. Can you elaborate? After all, aside from the club or stick.....the blade is probably the oldest type of weapon.

You show me a system that can guarantee I won't get cut in a knife fight. How about one that even will give me a "high" percentage of not getting cut. I have seen some that seem like they are much better then most.. but honestly... I would rather just give someone my wallet. When you get held up by someone, you will understand. I have been approached were they didn't seem to have any weapon and I have had someone pull a knife. I gave the guy my wallet without even thinking. It takes very little skill to kill someone with a knife, even the smallest knife.

I have had this discussion with Kali "masters", seals, and even special forces people. I even talked to a few Israeli arm guys. I have yet to train any knife style because I'm not impressed.. again I'll give someone my wallet faster. HELL I carry a fake wallet just for that reason.
Isn't martial arts about keeping yourself safe and using your common sense?

[dirtyrat]

You show me a system that can guarantee I won't get cut in a knife fight. How about one that even will give me a "high" percentage of not getting cut. I have seen some that seem like they are much better then most.. but honestly... I would rather just give someone my wallet. When you get held up by someone, you will understand. I have been approached were they didn't seem to have any weapon and I have had someone pull a knife. I gave the guy my wallet without even thinking. It takes very little skill to kill someone with a knife, even the smallest knife.

I have had this discussion with Kali "masters", seals, and even special forces people. I even talked to a few Israeli arm guys. I have yet to train any knife style because I'm not impressed.. again I'll give someone my wallet faster. HELL I carry a fake wallet just for that reason.
Isn't martial arts about keeping yourself safe and using your common sense?

I carry a fake wallet too!

In the FMAs I studied, I was taught that I shouldn't expect not to get cut, and that getting cut is a reality in knife defense. Having said that though, I had a classmate that manage to defend himself without getting cut, though he admit that lady luck was with him that day.

[Graychuan]

You show me a system that can guarantee I won't get cut in a knife fight.

There is none...just as there is no system that will guarantee that you wont get hit...but that doesnt invalidate the empty hand system. I will agree to disagree with you on this one. I have been in knife situations. Not muggings tho...as a bouncer. I handled myself and I have been cut. So I guess our own personal experiences will be the deciding factor. I agree with you on the common sense and being safe tho.

But I leave you with this...suppose you are going to be attacked anyways? Even if you give up the wallet. What then? Would you be better off with the skills or without?

[Knifefighter]

I think most of you have already stated a time or 2 that in a fight you tend to forget everything and just start fighting, so how the heck are you going to learn at such a time?

Actually, that's more common among people who have only trained in their training facilities and have never truly the adrenaline dump of a real fight. Full contact competitions give you a close approximation of that dump, which means you will be less likely to forget about what you have trained.

[Knifefighter]

***YES, I find it useful, Mr. Punch. Because you're spot on. Those Leung Ting (Wing Tsun) fight vids all over youtube make me laugh. Sure, they're getting some heavy-hitting and
getting-hit-heavy experience...but their technique is pure garbage, for the most part.

Umm... your technique in your videos wasn't any better.

[Knifefighter]

True. I'm just saying that one on one should not be your sole focus in training. Multiple opponents is just one other variable you could face. Things change when other factors are thrown in such as weapons, the type of weapons, the surprise factor, the environment you find yourself. .

You are exactly right. That is why, if you are training for self-defense/street fighting you should be going full contact with all those variables (including training with weapons on the ground). If you aren't, then you really aren't training for the street.

[Knifefighter]

You show me a system that can guarantee I won't get cut in a knife fight. How about one that even will give me a "high" percentage of not getting cut.

What you can do is decrease the probabilities of getting cut and/or getting killed, but again, you have to get as close to the real circumstances as possible.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Umm... your technique in your videos wasn't any better.

***BULL5HIT. You, yourself had some goods things to say about the sparring vids I put up a few years ago.

[k gledhill]

Drills in VT are easily misunderstood without some fundamental knowledge of the purpose of the drills in the first place. Vague notions abound, sadly.

Chi-sao has a lot of redundancy , like standing facing square on with 2 arms extended.

The arms are developed in the SLT to have an ability to deliver simultaneous attacking strikes.
By their acute angles along the centerline, they can create deflecting angles as they penetrate along the vt fighters flanking attacks.

The initial actions of the SLT are commonly thought of as a high low gaun sao and that it has a martial purpose, this is not the thinking . The actions are to x the wrists on the centerline in front of your chest, then extend out , as a strike would go out...while the wrists stay xed. then retracting back to the chest...you have created the line and the intersecting line of the strikes.....anything that comes across the line while fighting will be met by either arm along this line as they deliver strikes along the line.
The actions are shown pointing low so the beginning student doesn't train to raise the elbows up and down , a bad thing to ingrain .Each form starts with making the line to intersect and work as you complete the following forms . The SLT has tut sao to teach one arm of the initial opening actions is extended as the other is retracted....fluidly along the line..Chum kil teaches to point the line .

To make the idea function we need motion and the ability to face at angles to attacks from either side fluidly and instinctively. This is developed from stages of chi-sao and chum kil movement to learn to 'face' the attacking line to the opponent. This line is guided by knife fighting tactics of , fighting 50% of the attacker who is presumed to be equally armed with 2 blades ....the attacking 'line of force' becomes your guide to respond. Or what side is coming at you as they attack you, right or left ?
We train equally either side for this reason, so that we simply change the facing angles to take advantage of the movements of the attacker, if they turn before us we don't chase their arms , we allow the movement /motion that will open the sides up to possible counters or we create attacks that turn the opponent to their weaker sides an inability to face us with their full strength 2 arms and legs.
The attacking concept is a simple idea that once we have an entry we capitalize on it by attacking like rushing water. To be able to be like water isn't easy by any means, so we need to learn to po-pai guys who cover up as we attack, kick straight and low so we can chase a runner that is beyond our arms without stopping to chamber or step back to the kicks starting point , giving a gap to the attack....use bil gee actions to recover grabbed wrists as attempts are made to stop our arms , same if our arms are lifted up we tut sao under , not over as SLT

To have arms capable of seamless transfer from one side to the other we adopt the chi-sao stance facing equally.
We deliver stepping attacks and learn to angle to them as we 'strike the strike' with simultaneous counter strikes . Training to adopt responses to the attacking sides. We do this for each others benefit. I attack your right jum response with my left tan strike, each is working the others technique....You x my arm and I bong it away and recover my bong back to striking elbow in ie tan sao...elbow up, elbow back down to the line, elbow back up...elbow back down to the line . Jum sao strike, strike back to fook sao, rotate back and forth, check angles repeat to ingrain so you dont think about the angles of the arms and their ability to function under real stress.

In a fight we always adopt vu-sao & man sao in rotation , one arm leads the other so there is always a possibility to deliver another attacking hand from the vu-sao...the tut sao actions in SLT teach the sliding rotation along the same xed line of the first actions of SLT..one arm out the other back and ready to strike never trapping your self.

Not understanding the development of elbows , has led to many taking the drills and adopting them as 'moves'.

[Knifefighter]

***BULL5HIT. You, yourself had some goods things to say about the sparring vids I put up a few years ago.

I believe I said, good for you for sparring and putting the clips up. I'm not sure I said anything about your technique. That being said, I'm not putting down your technique, I'm just saying it wasn't any better than the ones you are putting down. The fact is, those guys would more than likely smash you.