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Thread: Seperating drills from practicallity

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Because 99% of people have no idea how to train for street/self-defense fighting, most of all the guys who do not realize the vital role that competition plays in this type of training.
    I strongly feel you have hit the needle on the head. Its true competition isn't 100% a street fight or selfdefense.. but it helps build the "core" ideas. sure you can do cheap illegal stuff in a fight.. but do you want to really on that as your only option? I'm seeing more and more that stuff like that isn't as reliable as we think,(having them done to me in BJJ by accident or on purpose). I would rather have those things as a option, but my real skill set, based my meat and potatoes striking.

    You could always just go out to bars and pick fights with people.. but honestly thats not too smart anymore.

    so competition like it or not is really the only "real" training aid/ training test.
    you just can't argue with it. Sure things are different in a real fight, but allot of things aren't. I would argue MOST things aren't.
    Last edited by monji112000; 06-30-2009 at 12:14 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    You often hear from the fantasy guys that "this is for street, not sport" (one of the many give-aways that you are dealing with a fantasy guy), and a commonly held MYTH among people who don't fight is that sport is somehow a lesser form of training. In reality, it's just the opposite. The sport model, which includes competition, has PROVED itself to be a much, much superior from of training than anything else. Sport has and continues to produce world-class level fighters, continually expanding levels of performance, etc.
    I understand the logic....so ur saying that an olympic tkd competitor is a more capable street fighter than say a krav maga practitioner?

    I agree that sport and competition can create one hell of a fighter. I just think there still exists a missing link between that and street fighting and that the two can not not be directly related although a relationship would exist.
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  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by grasshopper 2.0 View Post
    I understand the logic....so ur saying that an olympic tkd competitor is a more capable street fighter than say a krav maga practitioner?
    Absolutely. At least the TKD competitor is hitting and getting hit with full force against an opponent who is trying as hard as he can.

    I agree that sport and competition can create one hell of a fighter. I just think there still exists a missing link between that and street fighting and that the two can not not be directly related although a relationship would exist.
    Of course there is a jump from the competitive environment and the street. However, there is an ever bigger stretch from the training facility to the street and there is even less of a relation between the training facility and the street.

  4. #19
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    Points noted. Ya it does make sense. I think there may be apprehension to do so by some teachers because it may lead to "sloppy" technique or..as uve pointed out - these teachers have no clue.

    I'm still trying to find that line between attaining full-contact environment yet be able to use wing chun
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  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by grasshopper 2.0 View Post
    Points noted. Ya it does make sense. I think there may be apprehension to do so by some teachers because it may lead to "sloppy" technique or..as uve pointed out - these teachers have no clue.

    I'm still trying to find that line between attaining full-contact environment yet be able to use wing chun
    Yeah, god forbid you would find workable non-WC techniques that you might use.

  6. #21
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    Haha I knew that was coming. I'm all for punching/moving outside the realm of wing chun...but there are certain qualities/distinctions that are chracteristic of wing chun...it's not in the moves...but could be in the structure or how the punch is thrown (whether it is a "wing chun" punch or not).
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  7. #22
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    I like wing chun because I like wing chun.

    I like other arts and MMA because I like the other arts for what they are.

    I don't like fighting, but if I have to I'm sure as hell not going to worry about style: I'll use whatever I can remember and pull off.

    On a brief note more on topic: I don't do chain punches in a fight, but I think they have value as a drill. The straight wing chun punch up the middle does have value however against everyone I've tried it against since it is easy to achieve a slightly unexpected angle, accuracy and timing. The third or fourth time, they should have predicted it, mind, and will probably be easily counterpunching you out!

    You have to mix it up. That's why I don't buy your assertion, KF, that the Leung Ting (and yes, I'm picking on LT line here because 9 times out of 10 the youtube wing chun full contact ****fests are LT) clowns who go full contact nutso with protection against others from the same line and just end up with a one angle (straight from the front!), constantly advancing chainpunch fest with half-arsed crappling... are getting anything at all from their experience. You say they get more than the chunners who've never done any FC stuff but I don't believe so. They get a false sense of confidence and invincibility. Within the first 30 secs I would say of FC against boxers, Thai boxers, grapplers, kyokushin, even Tai Chi... I had I realised chain punches weren't going to cut it in terms of strategy or power.

    Again, with practicality in mind, when I work the bag I throw in wing chun, boxing, all sorts. Why? Because the bag isn't trad WC and that's good cos I don't want to worry about restricting myself to trad anything when the **** hits the fan. It's not that I don't believe my chun won't work (that's an irrelevant argument), just that you're an idiot if you think sticking to any one system has merit in a fight. So, why do I do 'ineffective' chun stuff on the bag? Everything has it's place. It's not rocket science to switch from a boxing stance to a chun stance, and back to a pin ma or whatever, just as it's not rocket science to switch from a boxing overhand right to a back-stance wing chun hook, to a front-weighted lead boxing hook... most things have their purpose (in the case of the hook the wing chun hook is definitely weaker than the boxing hook, but the vertical fist makes it less likely to damage your pinkies and it's easier than the boxing hook when they're pressurizing you and pushing you onto the back foot).

    Turned into a long post. Hope it's useful for someone.
    Last edited by Mr Punch; 06-30-2009 at 06:36 PM.
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  8. #23
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    You guys that advocate fighting with someone that is trying to hurt you, is that what you do? You know, if you did have any real experience outside the ring with actual fighting, you would know that each fight is going to be a completely different scenario, and that you will not be able to actually learn anything. You will only be able to apply what you have already learned. I think most of you have already stated a time or 2 that in a fight you tend to forget everything and just start fighting, so how the heck are you going to learn at such a time? I know that none of you are actually fighting. If you were, you would not be here arguing on this forum. You wouldn't have time. So you do all your fighting here.

  9. #24
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    that's true...i don't fight 24/7. Guilty as charged. haha

    yea, i'm of WT line and i know exactly what you mean Punch. Good post!
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    You guys that advocate fighting with someone that is trying to hurt you, is that what you do? You know, if you did have any real experience outside the ring with actual fighting, you would know that each fight is going to be a completely different scenario, and that you will not be able to actually learn anything. You will only be able to apply what you have already learned. I think most of you have already stated a time or 2 that in a fight you tend to forget everything and just start fighting, so how the heck are you going to learn at such a time? I know that none of you are actually fighting. If you were, you would not be here arguing on this forum. You wouldn't have time. So you do all your fighting here.
    WTF are you blathering about?

    Unfortunately I've had several fights 'outside' as security, as an obnoxious young man and as a random violence/mugging victim. I don't want any more, and can only see me having more if somebody gives my family grief. And no, I'm not fighting while I type this!

    ...is that what you do?
    Is WHAT what 'we' do?
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by grasshopper 2.0 View Post
    yea, i'm of WT line and i know exactly what you mean Punch. Good post!
    Thanks.123
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  12. #27
    "You have to mix it up. That's why I don't buy your assertion, KF, that the Leung Ting (and yes, I'm picking on LT line here because 9 times out of 10 the youtube wing chun full contact ****fests are LT) clowns who go full contact nutso with protection against others from the same line and just end up with a one angle (straight from the front!), constantly advancing chainpunch fest with half-arsed crappling... are getting anything at all from their experience. You say they get more than the chunners who've never done any FC stuff but I don't believe so. They get a false sense of confidence and invincibility. Within the first 30 secs I would say of FC against boxers, Thai boxers, grapplers, kyokushin, even Tai Chi... I had I realised chain punches weren't going to cut it in terms of strategy or power....Turned into a long post. Hope it's useful for someone."


    ***YES, I find it useful, Mr. Punch. Because you're spot on. Those Leung Ting (Wing Tsun) fight vids all over youtube make me laugh. Sure, they're getting some heavy-hitting and
    getting-hit-heavy experience...but their technique is pure garbage, for the most part.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    In my experience, most of that stuff -- the eye gouging, leg destructions, etc. -- is low-percentage, high-risk stuff that generally isn't reliable. Anyone who depends on that stuff as part of their game is training to fail.

    Most of these things simply can't be trained realistically (you can't really eye gouge or break your sparring partner's leg), and because you can't train them realistically, you can't develop the ability to use them under realistic conditions (in fighting). They can only be practiced under unrealistic (nonfighting) conditions. That is the advantage of sport training: you can really do/practice those things you do in the sport.

    And while "foul tactics" can be used effectively in limited situations, the ability to use them depends on having solid fundamentals (the non-foul stuff). Once again, the stuff comes from sport-type training.

    I agree though the "foul play" techniques shouldn't be just put aside and should be trained as well so those tools care in your tool shed of tools to use when needed. At the same time a palm strike to the head can be used instead of the ingers to the eyes etc.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    "You have to mix it up. That's why I don't buy your assertion, KF, that the Leung Ting (and yes, I'm picking on LT line here because 9 times out of 10 the youtube wing chun full contact ****fests are LT) clowns who go full contact nutso with protection against others from the same line and just end up with a one angle (straight from the front!), constantly advancing chainpunch fest with half-arsed crappling... are getting anything at all from their experience. You say they get more than the chunners who've never done any FC stuff but I don't believe so. They get a false sense of confidence and invincibility. Within the first 30 secs I would say of FC against boxers, Thai boxers, grapplers, kyokushin, even Tai Chi... I had I realised chain punches weren't going to cut it in terms of strategy or power....Turned into a long post. Hope it's useful for someone."


    ***YES, I find it useful, Mr. Punch. Because you're spot on. Those Leung Ting (Wing Tsun) fight vids all over youtube make me laugh. Sure, they're getting some heavy-hitting and
    getting-hit-heavy experience...but their technique is pure garbage, for the most part.
    Yes, but this is still closer to an actual street fight then fantasy larping that i see from most of the other WC/VT/WTvids on youtube. Good for them for learning to take a hit and how to deal with an adrenaline rush. As for a false sense of confidence...um, no. Just the opposite. Their learning respect, the hard way, for how fragile their heads really are

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    I like wing chun because I like wing chun.

    I like other arts and MMA because I like the other arts for what they are.

    I don't like fighting, but if I have to I'm sure as hell not going to worry about style: I'll use whatever I can remember and pull off.

    On a brief note more on topic: I don't do chain punches in a fight, but I think they have value as a drill. The straight wing chun punch up the middle does have value however against everyone I've tried it against since it is easy to achieve a slightly unexpected angle, accuracy and timing. The third or fourth time, they should have predicted it, mind, and will probably be easily counterpunching you out!

    You have to mix it up. That's why I don't buy your assertion, KF, that the Leung Ting (and yes, I'm picking on LT line here because 9 times out of 10 the youtube wing chun full contact ****fests are LT) clowns who go full contact nutso with protection against others from the same line and just end up with a one angle (straight from the front!), constantly advancing chainpunch fest with half-arsed crappling... are getting anything at all from their experience. You say they get more than the chunners who've never done any FC stuff but I don't believe so. They get a false sense of confidence and invincibility. Within the first 30 secs I would say of FC against boxers, Thai boxers, grapplers, kyokushin, even Tai Chi... I had I realised chain punches weren't going to cut it in terms of strategy or power.

    Again, with practicality in mind, when I work the bag I throw in wing chun, boxing, all sorts. Why? Because the bag isn't trad WC and that's good cos I don't want to worry about restricting myself to trad anything when the **** hits the fan. It's not that I don't believe my chun won't work (that's an irrelevant argument), just that you're an idiot if you think sticking to any one system has merit in a fight. So, why do I do 'ineffective' chun stuff on the bag? Everything has it's place. It's not rocket science to switch from a boxing stance to a chun stance, and back to a pin ma or whatever, just as it's not rocket science to switch from a boxing overhand right to a back-stance wing chun hook, to a front-weighted lead boxing hook... most things have their purpose (in the case of the hook the wing chun hook is definitely weaker than the boxing hook, but the vertical fist makes it less likely to damage your pinkies and it's easier than the boxing hook when they're pressurizing you and pushing you onto the back foot).

    Turned into a long post. Hope it's useful for someone.
    On the topic of "chain punches" -- they are a TACTIC, and IME there is a LIMITED time and place (tactical context) where they are useful. The trouble is that some people try to use that TACTIC the mainstay of their WCK (what I cal caveman WCK). When you use that tactic outside of its limited usefulness (tactical context), it becomes a potential liability. For example, blasting in from the outside with chain punches is stupid, and all it takes to see that for yourself is to try it a few times with good boxers or good wrestlers. They'll show you why it's stupid.
    Last edited by t_niehoff; 07-01-2009 at 09:38 AM.

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