The fact that you're using 'would probably become' suggests to me that you've never tried it in anything like real fighting...! I've used a 'real' 'classical' grab and pull lop sao against a guy in the street who tried to sucker punch me from behind (he was ostensibly trained in karate, a bit of boxing and something else): I caught wind of it, turned whilst ducking to some extent, 'caught' it on the outside and jerked him fist-first into a lamp-post behind me. Sprained wrist, instant capitulation (he was a drunk arse what-iffing, but was still trying to take my head off): saw him two weeks later, and his hand was still wrapped up.
I've tried using lop in FC sparring against Shooto fighters with considerable wrestling/JJ/judo experience... turns into a poor cousin of their positional hand work, BUT if you can get close enough quick enough and smoothly (non telegraphically enough) you can use their slightest repositioning as your opening. But let me tell you, those grappler boys can read a body better than most of us fools with our chi sao, and they're more likely to read what you're doing and drop you than vice versa. Why? Because they don't do chi sao: they wrestle! And that's all about reading bodies and sensitivity, but at full speed with full resistance and full strength attacking and defending... which chi sao ain't!
Nope, the concept of lop sao is up to the quality and experience of your opponent!But then again, the concept of lop sao is up to the practitioner and who he or she has learned from.
If it's like sparring, then it isn't sparring!You can talk to Violent Designs about the way we do chi sao. Its basically like sparring, just starting from a very close range. Why not spar, you might ask?...
And not only 'Why not spar?' but, why not start in a clinch trying to knee each other in the thighs, in the ghoolies, headbutt each other, elbow each other and box out each other's livers...?! Since, you know, that's the range you're saying chi sao is for developing to an expert degree.
So you do actually spar too? And there aren't any imaginary rules to it?... So our sparring is actually very much like our chi sao, only we have less outside-range fighting and more inside-range fighting, since we start on the inner ranges. I think the strongest point of it is that he isn't even a Wing Chun practitioner. So there aren't any imaginary rules built into it.
I would have to agree.Originally Posted by Liddel
You'd like to say... you haven't fought in any capacity have you? I mean, in the street, on the door, in a bar, at school, in a ring, even in FC protected sparring with a 'ref'? The way you're explaining this IT IS a complex, over-analysed performance...! And you teach, too? Have your students fought using what you've taught?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a real pop at you. It's just you seem to like to debate and discuss and like Liddel said, I think you're a little inconsistent to say the least, so I'm just trying to help you out by strengthening your argument!
I think you're missing some stuff at the shallow end first, mate! You can get really lost in the depths!Experience in the doing, for every subject, will give way to real knowledge. Does that mean we shouldn't try to speak or understand what is effectively art, science and philosphy, on the deepest level possible?
I'll tell you a little something that was useful for me after the first five minutes of playing with grapplers: there really is NO lop, jum, gaun, jut etc discernible at all when you're trying for position or trying to create an opening (be it for underhooks, a strike, a kick or whatever) - all there is is movement. If you freeze-frame it some of it may resemble something you may think you're using, but it's all irrelevant. Principle over technique, every time.I only "Grab" with Lop Sao because Lop Sao is a descriptive term for a grab. ...