Why do all MAs turn into kickboxing in the end?

[Lucas]

well, generally, any slam or heavy takedown on concrete. some times it phases guys, but then sometimes it doesnt. i think a lot of it depends on how well they keep their skull from smacking asphalt.

[lkfmdc]

CAN a throw knock you out? YES

WILL a throw knock you out? It's a different question entirely

But here's the other end

What if YOU are the one being thrown?

Well, if you are KO'ed, you're done

But if you are not, then what?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think Lucas is talking about when the guy lifts and slams the BJJ dude during the armbar setup.

It happened during that episode of TUF where those two ****s got into a fight, one guy had the arm bar, the other picked him up and dropped him on his head, he let go of the arm bar.
Or was it a triangle??

[naja]

well, generally, any slam or heavy takedown on concrete. some times it phases guys, but then sometimes it doesnt. i think a lot of it depends on how well they keep their skull from smacking asphalt.

That will partly depend on the one performing the takedown. In class we make sure to help uke fall in such a way as to assist him in his breakfalls. You can turn it the other way as well, and make it harder for uke to fall properly, if one was so inclined....

example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX3XFA0haFQ

Here's an example of Harai Goshi (a throw similar to the one above) done "properly", with ukes best interests at heart:
http://judoinfo.com/images/animation...haraigoshi.htm

[Lucas]

now im just imagining that head slam being done on concrete...ouch

[IronWeasel]

CAN a throw knock you out? YES

WILL a throw knock you out? It's a different question entirely

But here's the other end

What if YOU are the one being thrown?

Well, if you are KO'ed, you're done

But if you are not, then what?

...well, after three months of PT and anti inflammatories , you have spine surgery.

[jmd161]

now im just imagining that head slam being done on concrete...ouch

I actually saw a similar slam on concrete and the guy who was slammed actually won the fight. He won the fight after being slammed like that, but also after being run into a gavanized fence post and beaten for about 5 minutes prior. The guy was really taking a beaten and wouldn't fight back for the first 5 or 6 minutes. There was four of us talking when one guy who was talking with us attacked this guy out of no where, as he was walking by. The guy refused to fight back until I asked "why won't you defend yourself? " The guy responds " Because you guys will jump me" After we said we had nothing to do with it, he beat the cr@p out of that guy! LOL

I've never seen someone take such a beating and not only remain unfazed but actually win the fight.


jeff

[jmd161]

well, generally, any slam or heavy takedown on concrete. some times it phases guys, but then sometimes it doesnt. i think a lot of it depends on how well they keep their skull from smacking asphalt.

You know we covered this topic on another forum and it was interesting because in the hood/ urban areas you see a lot more slams in everyday fighting. The body slam is a technique everyone uses even those without any type of martial art/ sport training. The body slam is seen as a way to belittle your opponent as well as get them on the ground, so you can now stomp or kick them. It's not unlikely to see two guys fighting for position without throwing strikes, trying to be the first to get the slam.



jeff

[naja]

The body slam is a technique everyone uses even those without any type of martial art/ sport training.

I can agree with that, but when you start talking about ppl that do know what they're doing when they execute throws it becomes a different game.

I still remember the first time my judo sensei actually executed a throw on me with any real force. Our training mats are pretty thick ( DAX 4cm, I believe ) and it still almost knocked the wind out of me. He could have easily followed up with a stomp or kick before I even knew what was going on. Getting laid thrown on the ground in a street match is the next tolast thing that I want to happen to me. The last thing being the opponent pulling a blade...

[Lucas]

I actually saw a similar slam on concrete and the guy who was slammed actually won the fight. He won the fight after being slammed like that, but also after being run into a gavanized fence post and beaten for about 5 minutes prior. The guy was really taking a beaten and wouldn't fight back for the first 5 or 6 minutes. There was four of us talking when one guy who was talking with us attacked this guy out of no where, as he was walking by. The guy refused to fight back until I asked "why won't you defend yourself? " The guy responds " Because you guys will jump me" After we said we had nothing to do with it, he beat the cr@p out of that guy! LOL

I've never seen someone take such a beating and not only remain unfazed but actually win the fight.


jeff

Thats just freaking awesome!

[Eric Olson]

This might have something to do with it...

http://www.vybzmagazine.com/wp-conte..._Cherie_01.jpg

That's some brilliant photoshop work....

[naja]

That's some brilliant photoshop work....

Looks like they totally missed her left thumb........ yuck.

[golden arhat]

cant read more than the first few pages, this guy is hurtening my mind

suffice to say andy knows F@CK ALL about martial arts or fighting.

[Pork Chop]

well there is a playboy model fighting for master toddy, she's been transitioning to mma lately and looks an awful lot like that chick.
i'll leave it to you guys to track down her pictures though.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just a matter of training philosophy.

Every warrior culture has had a one-on-one martial practice that was somehow linked to battle practices. The Greeks and Romans had wrestling, so did the Indians, so did the Asians, Native Americans---but CMA and asian MA have kept up the idea of forms. It's like the layman's martial art, since practice often does not involve direct conflict at full-strength--live training. Judo and Jujitsu are far more involved in live contact than CMA, with the exception of sanshou or shuai jiao. Calling samurai practices a warrior's art is not out of line, but that preceded human rights type, illegal abuse restrictions. Jujitsu is not a samurai art, nor is judo; they're probably part of what comprised that culture, but they're not MMA, and they're not the ancient fighting art--because the practitioners are not soldiers for hire, looking to kill, and they evolved later out of their practices, and flourished into competition arts. MMA is a modern concept. It's not gladiatorial combat--since it has rules. So, greco-roman wrestling, of course, is not a combat art. No kidding. An important training method for a complete MA in modern terms, but not MMA and not a warrior art.

Every modern martial art teaches elements of real combat. Nobody trains real combat except the army, navy, marines, terrorists, gangs---pick your choice. They're not the most popular guys on the block at times.

I figure most of the art, style-specific stuff was community-building, tribal bonding, etc. Even in warrior cultures, or in the army, losing your identity for a community identity is part of the warrior's art. The good thing about modern martial arts in the US, and why they flourish, is that they reinforce individual identity by getting rid of all the commercial BS we associate with "cultured personalities" and "self-esteem" and all that stuff. They're philosophical at root. MMA, sanshou, --ring fighting arts--are cutting the fat from fathead philosophies that proliferated over the centuries from teachers who were never asked to prove their claims about representing warrior cultures. We've found out much of what was passed on was done so out of respect for teachers and the stories they told. Many were empty, so the tradition of BS is being tested.

I like the fact they're taking us back to the basics of one-on-one combat.

Calling ancient kung fu MMA is kind of BS, especially when coupled with the idea that there's anything that approximates ancient combat in the modern world. MMA is not a warrior's art. But it's the modern layman warrior's art.

As for throwing, it's never like the drills you train. Neither is sweeping. Against full resistance, it turns into wrestling, and half of the throws, if you have basic white-belt jujitsu, can be countered by pulling guard and holding onto a dude's neck. So fighting doesn't get sloppier, it gets harder. Why?

I don't think people are so willing to be polite anymore and roll out of a throw or breakfall anymore, when you can counter a throw or takedown for your own protection and dominate on the ground.

Most olympic jujitsu/judo competition throws end with both guys on the ground. Why? It's hard to take them someone down cleanly when they don't want to be taken down.

I wouldn't let anyone throw me on concrete. I can counter most throws by pulling people down to groundfighting. It's pretty easy, really. Because most throwing arts aren't used to groundfighters who don't mind fighting on the ground.