Apologies to Terence Niehoff...

[Yoshiyahu]

This thread is in poor taste. Why insult and attack a member.

As for jokes concerning racism. Well thats hate. An many people hate david duke just because he white. Also alot of people hated George W. Bush because he was white. An race related jokes about Bush was based on understood hatred for white folks.

If I hate someone or some race why make jokes about them why even verbalize my hatred. If you ain't got nothin good to say don't say it all.

So as for the joke towards terrence. Its about Hate. Hating Niehoff...Which I for one hate to see people put others down. To me its arrogant and racist.

I have always hated people that do such things.

^
It is just that, a community forum. Yes, it's focal point is martial arts, but it is not governed by that.




Its a forum with a community - We're all members of that community and as such, part of getting to know each other includes joking around with each other.

You want to argue the value of that? Who exactly are you to ascertain the value of something that is so subjective? The majority of the community here seem to have enjoyed the post, based on the responses. Its sad that you lack the sense of humor to do so as well, or even the concept that such may fall into others sense of humor.




Your logic is flawed. Fat jokes and racial jokes have nothing to do with this kind of joke. Racial jokes can imply an underlying hatred or dislike off a race, meaning just because this can imply an underlying dislike of you, it does NOT imply an underlying hatred for anything BUT you. Meaning it has no implication that he may or may not enjoy those types of jokes.

Speaking of which, there is nothing wrong with enjoying a race-related or weight-related joke. Plenty of great comedians, Sarah Silverman, Chris Rock, and many others have race-related jokes as part of their material. That in itself has nothing to do with racism, real racism goes far deeper than jokes.


Honestly though, you've said your piece, if you don't like the thread you should just move on and forget it exists.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Terence,

You spend enormous amounts of time on this forum doing little more than belittling other people, and 3/4's of the time it's your own personal biases that color the thinking (ie.- your thinking)...on the posts you make. Not facts or evidence.

And then there's this: You are guilty of the very same things that you accuse others of doing, ie.- they don't train realistically, you say, and they can't prove that they do...but you never prove that you train realistically (ie.- provide visual evidence, such as a vid).

So I provided the vid for you!

This bothers you?

bawahhhaa! bawahhhaaa! bwaaahhaaa!

Grow up, Terence.

[anerlich]

It's not about ideas or views (as my Red and Black Checkered Flag was

I'm most skeptical that the motivation for that thread's creation was free of intent to ridicule. Indeed for you to do so would be breathtakingly out of character.

If you want ot lecture people on polite posting (along, it seems, with just about everything else), start with the guy you see in the mirror.

[AdrianK]

This thread is in poor taste. Why insult and attack a member.

As for jokes concerning racism. Well thats hate. An many people hate david duke just because he white. Also alot of people hated George W. Bush because he was white. An race related jokes about Bush was based on understood hatred for white folks.

If I hate someone or some race why make jokes about them why even verbalize my hatred. If you ain't got nothin good to say don't say it all.

So as for the joke towards terrence. Its about Hate. Hating Niehoff...Which I for one hate to see people put others down. To me its arrogant and racist.

I have always hated people that do such things.

You didn't even respond to any of my points, so why even quote me. Just STFU.

[t_niehoff]

Terence,

You spend enormous amounts of time on this forum doing little more than belittling other people, and 3/4's of the time it's your own personal biases that color the thinking (ie.- your thinking)...on the posts you make. Not facts or evidence.

And then there's this: You are guilty of the very same things that you accuse others of doing, ie.- they don't train realistically, you say, and they can't prove that they do...but you never prove that you train realistically (ie.- provide visual evidence, such as a vid).

So I provided the vid for you!

This bothers you?

bawahhhaa! bawahhhaaa! bwaaahhaaa!

Grow up, Terence.

You can't distinguish between being critical of someone's VIEWS or IDEAS or even their PRACTICES -- which, btw, I don't do to be spiteful or to be nasty (as you are). Exchanges of ideas will involve pointing out flaws in others' arguements and evidence. That's not what you are doing.

You keep trying to emotionally blackmail me into doing a video. I'm not going to do any video. Get over it. Nor am I going to go onto bullshido and promise to make one and then not deliver. the people who know me and have met me -- like Robert and some others on this forum -- know how we train here. They've seen it for themselves. But the point isn't about how I train -- it is about how YOU train. Whether your training or not is working is the question. And the only way to see is to get out and do what I keep telling you: go mix it up with some competent fighters.

Everyone who has done that, who has gone and trained with MMA guys or MT guys, and objectively asked themselves if they can do what they train to do against them, pretty much shares the core of what I am saying. The only people who disagree are the people like you -- you won't go outside your bubble and mix it up with competent fighters (inclusing grapplers).

You are either doing the WORK, mixing it up with competent people -- or you are not. I don't expect anyone who is not doing that WORK to understand or grasp anything I'm saying.

[duende]

I'm most skeptical that the motivation for that thread's creation was free of intent to ridicule. Indeed for you to do so would be breathtakingly out of character.

If you want ot lecture people on polite posting (along, it seems, with just about everything else), start with the guy you see in the mirror.

While I thought some of that thread was funny at times... clearly it was meant to cause not only ridicule but ill-will. Same with most of T's posts. Needless insults, false accusations that he refuses to back up in person.

[punchdrunk]

Not much difference between this and the checkered flag comments. I agree with a lot of what T says about training, just laughing this off will get rid of it quicker.
Here's a famous clip, I got ceritified at this masters symposium and no it's not racist.. fat english men can be great sifoo's too, so don't judge him till you fight him.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTUNhV_yMW0

[Mr Punch]

I'm confused. Which one was T? The bear? The chick by the shack? How come he didn't get his norks out?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"You keep trying to emotionally blackmail me into doing a video. I'm not going to do any video....You are either doing the WORK, mixing it up with competent people -- or you are not." (Niehoff)


***THIS is so interesting. "Emotional blackmail", you call it. Humm!

That's exactly what you do constantly - as you are always challenging people around here to "PROVE" that they're training is realistic. And no, because Robert Chu made a post saying that you work hard, have some skills, work with other guys regularly, blah, blah, blah", etc. (I paraphrased his post)...

that doesn't cut it. You wash his back constantly, maybe he's washing yours.

The fact is becoming clear, Niehoff, that you can't back up your rhetoric. That's why you won't.

This being the case, you should seriously consider toning down your attacks and criticisms of other wing chun people.

[SavvySavage]

I think this thread is hysterical and brings much needed humor to the oncoming economic depression.

t_niehoff,

Just out of curiosity do any of your current wing chun teachers train with pro mma/competent grapplers on a regular basis? I don't know how old you are but I'm assuming your teachers are older than you so I'm wondering if they do what you are suggesting and that is why you respect them.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You know, Terence, here's the big problem with you. You make some very good points about training realistically, about the importance of constant sparring/fighting/testing - about working with and against guys who are trained in other arts, ie.- boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, kickboxing, mma, etc. (And you are not the only person on this forum who has ever posted about these things, not by a long shot).

But if you're going to pound people around here over the head constantly about these things, and if you're going to claim that wing chun training is basically useless, ie.- the forms, chi sao, fighting/sparring applications being taught as part of the wing chun curriculum, the wooden dummy, etc...and if you're going to constantly rip into wing chun instructors, masters, grandmasters, etc.

as if you're some sort of an authority about what does and doesn't work in wing chun - then you've got to put a visual where your mouth is.

You've got to back up what you say with something that others can see. Because, for all we know, your martial art fighting/sparring/rolling skills could be pure garbage. In which case, what you constantly drone on about has to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt - if not ignored outright. This is why you really have to show us something.

Otherwise, the same ridicule that you inflict on others will come back to you. And when it does - you can't take it.

[osprey3883]

Victor,
One word, PRICELESS.

Although Terrence claims to discuss peoples practices, views and ideas in a critical manner he constantly makes inuendos and accusations that have nothing to do with training. He challenges people to document what they do, yep produces no documentation of himself. He tells people how to train, yet ducks out on people who want to come see what he's about.
When someone pokes fun at him he plays the everyone is picking on me card.
You'd think for all his "experience" as a lawyer he'd have some thicker skin and wouldn't spend so much time talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Matt

[t_niehoff]

"You keep trying to emotionally blackmail me into doing a video. I'm not going to do any video....You are either doing the WORK, mixing it up with competent people -- or you are not." (Niehoff)


***THIS is so interesting. "Emotional blackmail", you call it. Humm!

That's exactly what you do constantly - as you are always challenging people around here to "PROVE" that they're training is realistic. And no, because Robert Chu made a post saying that you work hard, have some skills, work with other guys regularly, blah, blah, blah", etc. (I paraphrased his post)...

that doesn't cut it. You wash his back constantly, maybe he's washing yours.

The fact is becoming clear, Niehoff, that you can't back up your rhetoric. That's why you won't.

This being the case, you should seriously consider toning down your attacks and criticisms of other wing chun people.

You don't get it. To use grappling as an example: I don't care whether or not YOU go down to the local BJJ school to see whether or not your Catch is any good. You can continue to live in fantasy land and train it with your students as far as I'm concerned. (Personally, I think you're so ensconced in it nothing will every get you out of it). But, my point is that UNTIL YOU DO THAT -- UNTIL YOU GO AND TRAIN WTIH GOOD, PROVEN, COMPETENT FIGHTERS -- YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW. Training with scrubs, poorly trained guys, your students, etc. will never show you what is or is not good. Nor can you develop good fighting skills doing that. You can only see this by training with and against (sparring) good, proven fighters. That's the only way.

A person either has that EXPERIENCE (training against competent people) or they don't. They either seek it out or they don't. It won't help you in the least to see me doing that. You won't get anything from my experience. You can see good grapplers on youtube to your hearts content. But that isn't PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH GOOD, COMPETENT FIGHTERS. And that's something you don't have. Nor do you have it with good standup fighters, like MT or MMA fighters.

You have to seek that out. No one can give it to you. No one can explain it to you. You can't get it from videos. YOU HAVE TO DO IT. YOU. No one else.

The people who DO that, and put in some time doing that, will understand what I am talking about. I know because they write me after their experience to tell me. If they, like you, however aren't doing that, then all their theories, concepts, ideas, etc. are BASED on doing things with poorly skilled people, typically in unrealistic exercises or in sparring that is actually play-fighting. And not only that, but they can NEVER develop good skills themselves since it is the sparring with good people that is what develops skill. You don't get significantly better by training against scrubs/students. Even if you train solid stuff, doing it against scrubs/students won't develop good skills.

So, Victor, I don't care what your views are or what the views of any of the folks who haven't done THAT work. I don't care about theories or the ramblings of grandmasters who haven't done that work either -- regardless of their selfpromotion. If you think this or that is good, or if you want to believe some authority, that is your perogative. But my reply will always be the same: go try it against competent fighters because that is the only way to know. Until I know someone has done that, I don't believe what they have to say. Because their views aren't informed by GOOD EXPERIENCE but by poor experience.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And I don't care what the views are of someone who, for all I know - since he makes sure no one ever gets to see him in action - could have very little skill of his own.

[Stevehans]

So, Victor, I don't care what your views are or what the views of any of the folks who haven't done THAT work. I don't care about theories or the ramblings of grandmasters who haven't done that work either -- regardless of their selfpromotion. If you think this or that is good, or if you want to believe some authority, that is your perogative. But my reply will always be the same: go try it against competent fighters because that is the only way to know. Until I know someone has done that, I don't believe what they have to say. Because their views aren't informed by GOOD EXPERIENCE but by poor experience.

You obviously do care otherwise you would be posting in the MMA forums instead of this fantasy fu one

I think most people really dont have a problem when you express (as you have above) an opinion about the merits of your training approach. This thread was never about the potential merits or otherwise of what you personally believe.

It was clearly a jab at your gut to get your reaction which worked brilliantly, ok it was personal and we all know that, nonetheless some here actually found it excruciatingly funny.

Why dont you PM Benny and his clan to see whether they appreciated your red and black chequered thread ? Off course we all believe it was just light hearted humour, which was really only to address the merits of critical thinking, and off course done WITHOUT ANY INTENT OR ILL WILL ...............

I for one thinks Victor also deserves an honorary Sticky for this thread for its light hearted originality !