Apologies to Terence Niehoff...

[couch]

**** shame, because you would be a great asset to any forum and I too gave up on this forum long ago as a viable place for discussion. You can't even ask a simple question without some Sifu launching into some acrimonious, snarky retort as if you had broken the law of some precious kuen kuit.

It is sad because there are some really knowledgeable, helpful people here but the chest thumping and the guru on the mountain top BS overshadows any good that may be gleaned from here.

Watch for the folks that post here and there. Those opinions count in my experience.

"He who screams the loudest knows the least." (Except for the practical fighter types like T!)

[sihing]

Even enemies can show respect for each other.

That is something I myself had a hard time learning (and still struggle with) honestly.

The problem with "respect" (like love, truth and many other things in life) is that you ask 5 different people their definition, and you'll get 5 different answers.

I am coming to the realization that decent folk should show respect to their fellow man. Can people earn and lose respect? I think decent folk can still respect someone who's behavior is less that acceptable because his/her behavior has nothing to do with who you are. When a child misbehaves an understanding parent doesn't hold it against the child because the child doesn't know any better. Of course that's not to say the parent won't take corrective measures .

People don't need martial arts training to learn virtues. But it is a challenging path. Fighters and people in general can go through their entire lives and not overcome their insecurities. Many are driven by their insecurities. This forum like many others, is proof of that.

I thought it would be fun to share thoughts and ideas with other martial artists but... I think I had enough of forums.

Good post and I agree 100%. This forum has lost it's original purpose a long time ago. Now it is about ego's, and who's right and who's wrong. Sort of a king of the hill complex, with little understanding going on between people that are posting on a single topic. As Martial Artists you would think that we would learn something about virtue and character, but you won't find much of that around here. It's all about fighting now, and if you not into the MMA mindset of kill or be killed your called some kind of pathetic name by someone that doesn't know a thing about you. Very sad, and is the reason why I don't frequent this place too often now.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

I agree, James, there is a king-of-the-hill mentality going on around here quite, quite often.

And it seems to me that the single biggest cause of it is when someone comes on here (and often) to tell the rest of us that their way (or their lineage) is the only right way, the only true way, their standards of evaluating quality wing chun (and how wing chun might fit into quality martial arts as a whole) are the only true standards, their definitions of what quality and practical fighting and the testing of those fight skills are...are the only ones that make sense, etc.

And if said person makes such arguments constantly, then the least they can do is back it up with evidence...evidence that clearly suggests that they know what they're talking about. They themselves. Not somebody else. Them. By showing us something.

And furthermore, If one of their positions is, for example, is that no one knows any real, workable and fight efficient applications to the wing chun forms, chi sao, wooden dummy, and how to make drills functional, etc. - unless of course it's someone connected in some way to the poster saying these things...

then why should we not come to the conclusion that at least part (if not all) of what they're really saying is that they don't know such applications? But sometimes the same person will also suggest that they do know functional wing chun when they see it.

That's not an acceptable position. Anybody can say that. If said person is going to be so adamant about such things - then the onus is on them to prove to the rest of us that they are believable.

They need to show us what they can do.

And if they want to make post-after-post showing nothing but disrespect to other wing chun people, including some very prominent wing chun instructors/masters/grandmasters, etc...

Then they need to show us what they can do. They need to earn our respect if they want to be so disrespectful, if they're so convinced that the skills (and teachings) of others are not worthy of respect.

And that's the whole point of this thread.

[Yoshiyahu]

I think this thread is hysterical and brings much needed humor to the oncoming economic depression.

t_niehoff,

Just out of curiosity do any of your current wing chun teachers train with pro mma/competent grapplers on a regular basis? I don't know how old you are but I'm assuming your teachers are older than you so I'm wondering if they do what you are suggesting and that is why you respect them.

This is a great question actually????

You didn't even respond to any of my points, so why even quote me. Just STFU.

I believe i indirectly discussed some points of your post and others as well?

[couch]

And that's the whole point of this thread.

Upon looking at the topic of the thread, I thought that you were actually apologizing to Terrence.

And then I looked at the Youtube video and it was nothing more than some joke that you weren't apologizing to Terrence.

THAT is the whole point of this thread.

[t_niehoff]

This is a great question actually????

Yes, there are some. That (getting out and crosstraining with good, competent nonWCK fighters) was one of the things Robert stressed to me from day one. And I know he stressed it to Alan (who has and continues to train with very good fighters and fight trainers), and Dave, Dzu, etc. And there are others from other lineages of WCK. Anyone who is seriously training to make their WCK work is doing it.

As I have said, this is nothing new. In the "old days" the guys who got better were the ones who went out and fought. That echoes what Sum told Rene. This is what Kano said about traidtional jiujitsu too. While you need to fight to develop (fighting skill), there are several problems with just hitting the streets to fight. Firstly, it is dangerous and against the law. Hawkins realized this when he was with Yip Man, and began crosstraining in japanese karate just to get sparring partners. Secondly, you're not getting good competition on the streets -- they aren't trained, in shape, competent fighters. And that matters since it is the performance level of your opponents that drive your development.

Kano recognized all this and took traditional jiujitsu and by adopting the sport model overcame those two problems. With sport-type training, you could fight legally and without the dangers of the street (weapons, retribution, etc.), you could fight regularly and consistently, and you could do it against in-shape, competent people.

Times have changed. I think the MMA revolution has taught us some great lessons. We can either learn from these lessons and put them to work for us or we can hide our heads in the sand, and act like everything is grand. In the old days, they had were the "rooftop fights". Today, we can do better.

[Sihing73]

Secondly, you're not getting good competition on the streets -- they aren't trained, in shape, competent fighters. And that matters since it is the performance level of your opponents that drive your development.

Hello,

This hits the nail on the head for many, perhaps. If one is only training for their own personal development or for the ability to defend themselves on the street then there may be no need to train with MMA and other "compentent" fighters. As it is unlikely you will encounter them trying to mug you on the street.

Since some of us have lives outside of the MA's, we could get all we need from within our chosen art. Of course, if one has the time, money and inclination to train with others, MMA etc, then it is certainaly a plus, but not necessarily a need, at least for the average "self defense" situation.

Is there really a need to go and test yourself against competent fighters when you are unlikely to ever have to fight one for real? Also, since those on the street are mostly unskilled scrubs I would say most with WC/VT/WT training should do okay should they ever need to apply their art.

Thanks T for stating such a valid point.

[t_niehoff]

Hello,

This hits the nail on the head for many, perhaps. If one is only training for their own personal development or for the ability to defend themselves on the street then there may be no need to train with MMA and other "compentent" fighters. As it is unlikely you will encounter them trying to mug you on the street.

Since some of us have lives outside of the MA's, we could get all we need from within our chosen art. Of course, if one has the time, money and inclination to train with others, MMA etc, then it is certainaly a plus, but not necessarily a need, at least for the average "self defense" situation.

Is there really a need to go and test yourself against competent fighters when you are unlikely to ever have to fight one for real? Also, since those on the street are mostly unskilled scrubs I would say most with WC/VT/WT training should do okay should they ever need to apply their art.

Thanks T for stating such a valid point.

There are two main problems with your view.

The first is: how can you know that what you are training is fundamentally sound?

In wrestling, they have a term called "junk". "Junk" are things that work at a certain low-levels of competition but fail against better competition. Does "junk" work? Yup. But not because it is good, sound wrestling but because your opponent is bad.

So why not train junk for the street? Well, when you do that, you are training to fail. You are defacto underestimating your opponent. You are training with the assumption that he won't be any good. Is this a sound way to train?

If you are going to train anyway, why not learn and train fundamentally solid, sound skills? Take the same time you are learning junk and instead learn good wrestling, stuff that will work not only against scrubs but also at the highest levels of wrestling?

By working with/against fundamentally sound, skilled fighters, you will see whether what you are doing is junk (because it won't work) and it will force you to develop sound, solid skills yourself.

The other problem is that even if you are learning fundamentally sound, soild skills (let's say BJJ from some good tapes), you won't develop competent skills by training/sparring with incompetent people. Once again, you need to train against competent fighters to drive your development.

Why look for reasons to not train with competent fighters? They can only help you develop. The only reason I can see for not training with competent fighters is ego preservation.

[chusauli]

Maybe this can help - one of my old columns:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/col...s_walking.html

I stress to my students to train optimally, really try things and then you'll know.

Yip Man said to Hawkins and Bruce Lee, "Go out and try it; maybe I am tricking you."

Master Tung (a great acupuncturist) said, "When you observe for yourself, then you will know."

This is why I say, "Stress function over form, let application be your guide."

We can have politics of a hand held too high or too low, but we don't have politics over applications done at the right time and place.

And don't worry about my development, worry about your own development. You're the one who has to do the job...

[Sihing73]

Why look for reasons to not train with competent fighters? They can only help you develop. The only reason I can see for not training with competent fighters is ego preservation.

Hello T,

Please re-read my post. I am not saying there is anything wrong with training with competent fighters, I even say if you have the time, money and inclination to do so that it would be of benefit.

Sorry, but I am not bagging on the idea of training with anyone more skilled as it is always a learning experience and of benefit. One of my favorite sayings is that "knowledge is never wasted".

What I am saying is that if one opts to train against MMA or the like that is to their benefit. However, if one is more concerned with just being able to survive on the street such training is not needed. Of course, the best option for surviving a real life street encounter is avoidance.

I simply pointing out that your yourself admited that the opponents likely to encountered on the street will be of a low skill level, thus emphasizing my point that MMA type of training is most likely not needed.

One thing I have always stressed is the importance of the proper mind set for any type of combat.

As to my ego...................those who know me could tell you whether I have an ego or am worried about being put in my place by those more skilled than I.

Of course, one could also argue that stressing ones own Point of View and deriding those not of the same viewpoint could also speak to ones ego as well

[sihing]

Hello T,

Please re-read my post. I am not saying there is anything wrong with training with competent fighters, I even say if you have the time, money and inclination to do so that it would be of benefit.

Sorry, but I am not bagging on the idea of training with anyone more skilled as it is always a learning experience and of benefit. One of my favorite sayings is that "knowledge is never wasted".

What I am saying is that if one opts to train against MMA or the like that is to their benefit. However, if one is more concerned with just being able to survive on the street such training is not needed. Of course, the best option for surviving a real life street encounter is avoidance.

I simply pointing out that your yourself admited that the opponents likely to encountered on the street will be of a low skill level, thus emphasizing my point that MMA type of training is most likely not needed.

One thing I have always stressed is the importance of the proper mind set for any type of combat.

As to my ego...................those who know me could tell you whether I have an ego or am worried about being put in my place by those more skilled than I.

Of course, one could also argue that stressing ones own Point of View and deriding those not of the same viewpoint could also speak to ones ego as well

Good post Dave.

Obviously, the more skilled the partners are that you are training with the better you will be, we all know this. If every week you are dealing with MT guys, or wrestlers you will naturally have a better ability to deal with those types of fighters. The thing is, like you mentioned, is it absolutely necessary? NO it isn't, if you choose to concentrate on strictly self protection, or just want to learn WC for the sake of that alone.

What I don't get about T is that nobody here on this forum is claiming Martial superiority, or ultimate ability to fight anyone anywhere anytime with guaranteed success. So for me it is obvious his reasons for repeating himself are for self serving reasons, basically his ego is getting a kick out it, otherwise why do it. I for one would get bored fast hanging around a TKD forum all day trying to tell these guys to keep their arms up when they fight, why would I? Maybe because I like to hear my own voice, maybe it makes me feel superior, like I know something they don't???

James

P.S. To say that all opponents on the street are scrubs is a joke. The fact is you don't know WHO you are going to meet on the street. They may have training, they may not. That is why it IMO that environment provides just as many difficulties as the ring would, it's called UNPREDICABILITY.

[Sihing73]

P.S. To say that all opponents on the street are scrubs is a joke. The fact is you don't know WHO you are going to meet on the street. They may have training, they may not. That is why it IMO that environment provides just as many difficulties as the ring would, it's called UNPREDICABILITY.

Hi James,

I totally agree that to discount those one meets on the street as ALL being of no or low skill is foolish. However, one thing I have found to be true is that the percentage of those looking for trouble with the discipline to actually train to a high level are few. I believe, that most that attain a higher skill level somewhere along the way lose the tase for causing trouble, of course this is a generalism and not truth. There are always exceptions. Also, if someone just got out of jail they will most likely be in excellent shape physically, much more so than the average persona and this also has an impact.

Besides, most fights on the street involve multiple opponents and weapons. One of the reason I stress avoidance as the best method. Also another reason why I CHEAT when I fight.

[chusauli]

Dave,

You're absolutely correct. One doesn't need altercations on the street, as they can escalate to unnecessary violence and expensive legal aftermath.

When you study firearms, you suppose everyone else is armed too. That's why an armed society is a polite society. I always assume people are carrying weapons and have mental imbalance on the street. Its better to walk away from possible oncoming problems. You should know that awareness is your best asset. Cheat only to buy you time to get away.

Developing your art, you find people you can train with and get better with. Crosstraining keeps you humble and well rounded. Specialists help you uncover areas you're weak in. I believe sports are a healthy outlet for serious training, bringing out the best in your timing, skills, etc.

Best regards,

[Sihing73]

I always assume people are carrying weapons and have mental imbalance on the street.

Hi Robert,

I think I visited one of your classes in NYC when I was with Allan Fong.

Is that where you learned of my Mental Imbalance

Seriously, it is always best to train and explore other options. The only thing I feel is that too many venture out without first building a firm foundation in their chosen art. The reason some things don't work is that the time and effort to develope in one art has not been taken.

The concept of MMA or crosstraining is nothing new. Heck, the idea of training in other arts is a time honored tradition in most "traditional" arts. It was common practice in many instances to go and get additional or advanced training from others, but only after firmly grounding yourself in your original art, then building upon that foundation. I think you will find most "Warrior" or true "Martial" systems would explore all types of approaches in order to better prepare for combat. Consider the Samuria and the number of arts they trained in.

I have a friend who does Pekiti Tirsia and he is a very intense person. His martial skill is excellent but his balance with life is, IMHO, off. I have told him many times that if I were living in a time where my Martial Skills would prolong my life or I would face combat on a daily basis then I would train differently. When I was a Police Office or in the Military, I did train more intensely.

Now that I am 45 and work with computers and live in the mountains I do not need to be on edge and ready to fight all the time. I prefer to train with this in mind. I also opt to focus more on my family and devote most of my time to them. I do train my girls, but it is on how to defend if needed as well as the importance of not fighting.

I like my approach, for me. For others theirs is fine as well. Now if I thought it likely that a team of Angry Ninjas were going to attack my home and family then I would train with that in mind. However, as that is unlikely to happen I am content to train to maintain my low skill level and enjoy life.

[sihing]

Hi James,

I totally agree that to discount those one meets on the street as ALL being of no or low skill is foolish. However, one thing I have found to be true is that the percentage of those looking for trouble with the discipline to actually train to a high level are few. I believe, that most that attain a higher skill level somewhere along the way lose the tase for causing trouble, of course this is a generalism and not truth. There are always exceptions. Also, if someone just got out of jail they will most likely be in excellent shape physically, much more so than the average persona and this also has an impact.

Besides, most fights on the street involve multiple opponents and weapons. One of the reason I stress avoidance as the best method. Also another reason why I CHEAT when I fight.

Hi Dave,

I work security in a hotel, where drug and alcohol abuse is wide spread. Been there a year now, and I haven't gotten really close to a fight yet. Someone last week took one of my shifts, he fills in for me once in awhile, well he was in the parking lot at the time that someone was in the process of stealing a car that was still running. The car crashed into a landmark on the property, the assailiant got out and he ran after him (which is not our job by the way, and totally unnecessary for our job description), anyways he caught up to the guy and tried to subdue the guy for the cops, the guy took a swing at him and he had to take him down (he is Martial Artist as well, but with a different attitude than mine). I found it interesting when I came back to work and read his report. The guy is nice enough but has the wrong temperment for the job, as situations like this have happened before and he only works the occasional security shift. He's looking for trouble, whereas I am not. The attitude difference effects the outcome your shift. I used to work in security years ago as well, hospitals, other hotels, etc, and have never had any real problems, where others have.

I agree, that weapons are usually involved in street altercations, and are too be avoided if all possible. For general Martial Arts training I agree with Robert, crosstraining is good and it can round out your skills and bring about areas of improvement and/or where one may need some work. It's all good, that is if that is where your interest lie. For me, if I had they time I would love to take a MT class once in awhile, I would love the cardio workout, and it would take me out of the strictness the VT cirriculum provides, no problem with that.

James