Apologies to Terence Niehoff...

[Sihing73]

Hi James,

I agree that cross training is good, if that is where your interest lies. I just don't buy into the whole, if you don't do it my way you are wrong spiel.

Shoot, I guess I would have to be considered a cross trainer as I do Wing Chun, Pekiti Tirsia and Kuntau/Silat. I find that blending the arts with a Wing Chun foundation works just fine for me. Of course I am not looking to be the next great UFC or MMA champion either. Of course, with my deadly skills I would win every match or if I lost perhaps I could get the ring girls to console me, either way I'd be a winner.

I have already had several death matches and to date I have only lost two

[sihing]

Hi James,

I agree that cross training is good, if that is where your interest lies. I just don't buy into the whole, if you don't do it my way you are wrong spiel.

Shoot, I guess I would have to be considered a cross trainer as I do Wing Chun, Pekiti Tirsia and Kuntau/Silat. I find that blending the arts with a Wing Chun foundation works just fine for me. Of course I am not looking to be the next great UFC or MMA champion either. Of course, with my deadly skills I would win every match or if I lost perhaps I could get the ring girls to console me, either way I'd be a winner.

I have already had several death matches and to date I have only lost two

Only several, jeez Dave what planet are you living on. According to Terrence, your chances of meeting someone with competent skills and aggression is high, so you'd better take his advice and start becoming paranoid and obsessive/compulsive towards your training, lol...

Seriously, we only do things in life that give us pleasure. In this day and age the chances of getting into an altercation (that is if you are actively aware) are very slight. So why someone would want to train for the sole purpose of getting really really good at fighting, when all the other guy has to do is draw a gun and shoot you, is unreasonable IMO. Enjoy life, enjoy Martial Arts, be practical and realistic about what you are doing, and hopefully you gain some skills and learn a thing or two about yourself in the process of it all.

Moderation is the key to life....

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"What I don't get about Terence is that nobody here on this forum is claiming Martial superiority, or ultimate ability to fight anyone anywhere anytime with guaranteed success. So for me it is obvious his reasons for repeating himself are for self serving reasons, basically his ego is getting a kick out it, otherwise why do it? I for one would get bored fast hanging around a TKD forum all day trying to tell these guys to keep their arms up when they fight, why would I? Maybe because I like to hear my own voice, maybe it makes me feel superior, like I know something they don't???" (James/sihing)

"I agree that cross training is good, if that is where your interest lies. I just don't buy into the whole, if you don't do it my way you are wrong spiel." (Dave/Sihing73)

.................................................. ........


***IMO, these two quotes should comprise a closed, one post thread with a permanent sticky here on the wing chun forum.

The need to crosstrain and to workout/spar/roll competitively against people trained in other arts is very important, imo; but to obsess about this to the point that some people do betrays some very questionable motives, and I think James hits the nail on the head about what exactly those motives are. It's about chest beating with a non-stop drone that also employs a constant put-down of wing chun concepts, principles, forms, drills, chi sao training, wooden dummy, etc. - and a constant put down of other people in wing chun, including some very prominent wing chun instructors, masters, grandmasters, etc.

And it's a particularly hypocritical and annoying form of chest beating when those doing it again-and-again never provide any tangible (ie.-visual) evidence that they themselves can actually do what they talk about.

So the irony, for me anyway, is that I basically agree with Terence's views about the need to crosstrain and constantly test what you do against people with real martial art skills. The problem is that virtually every discussion about wing chun around here seems to get poisoned to some degree-or-another by the chest beating obsession of one (and occasionally a few others join in the game as well).

[t_niehoff]

I agree that cross training is good, if that is where your interest lies. I just don't buy into the whole, if you don't do it my way you are wrong spiel.

It's not about "right" and "wrong", it's about appreciating the process of skill development.

Look at it this way,

1) if you appreciate that fighting skills only come from fighting (or, in other words, you only develop skill at X by doing X), then it follows that you need to fight/spar as the core of your training IF you want to develop fighting skill. And everything else is prep work.

2) the level of your opponents -- the people you spar with -- will determine, and can limit, your development.

3) knowledge and understanding comes from skill (not the other way round).

All of this is nothing new, it's not MY theory, this is simply the way in all sport/athletic training.

If you say, OK, I apprecicate all that, but I'm simply not that interested in developing much skill or "understanding" of WCK, then I say that's fine and dandy.

[chusauli]

Hi Dave,

I remember those old days in NYC. I was happy Allan and I had such an open relationship. I could bring my guys to his class or he to bring guys to my class. I always had a good time to chat with him - he was real knowledgeable. I am sorry I lost touch with him.

What you bring up is correct. To be unbalanced or have hair trigger response is not always appropriate. Classical martial systems also developed impeccable balanced character. In fact, aside from combat efficiency, character is valued. In WCK circles, Tsui Sheung Tien is considered modest and unassuming, another reason he is the "King of Siu Nim Tao". For WCK, centered and balanced are good goals.

People need a balance, in career and family, exercise and diet, sleep and activity, stress and emotions. These are the keys to longevity and health. To have too much concentration in one area can show deficiency and unbalance in other areas.

Be careful of those rural areas being "safe", though. A neighborhood is considered "safe" or "unsafe" due to people. People are mobile. They can always come and get you... but not trying to make you paranoid. Good to have a CCW and packing.

[t_niehoff]

Obviously, the more skilled the partners are that you are training with the better you will be, we all know this. If every week you are dealing with MT guys, or wrestlers you will naturally have a better ability to deal with those types of fighters. The thing is, like you mentioned, is it absolutely necessary? NO it isn't, if you choose to concentrate on strictly self protection, or just want to learn WC for the sake of that alone.

James, this is a true story. I used to train BJJ at a satellite school that shared space with a Krav Maga Academy. One day we saw them training ground defenses (escapes). It was crap. They were practicing them "alive" and we're in most cases pulling them off. But only because the Krav guys we're really crappy. A BJJ brown belt (who is a really nice guy) later tried to privately talk to the KM instructor and explain why what they were doing wasn't very good, why it opened them up to several submissions, how it could be easily countered, etc. The KM instructor didn't want to hear it.

Let me ask you, if you were wanting to learn "ground defense", wouldn't you rather learn good, solid fundamentals that weren't self-limiting? That didn't depend on your opponent being crap? Or, since it is only self-defense and you will only be betting your life on it, that it really doesn't matter? After all, when are you going to meet anyone on the street that has any skill?

What I don't get about T is that nobody here on this forum is claiming Martial superiority, or ultimate ability to fight anyone anywhere anytime with guaranteed success. So for me it is obvious his reasons for repeating himself are for self serving reasons, basically his ego is getting a kick out it, otherwise why do it. I for one would get bored fast hanging around a TKD forum all day trying to tell these guys to keep their arms up when they fight, why would I? Maybe because I like to hear my own voice, maybe it makes me feel superior, like I know something they don't???

You miss my point entirely. What I am trying to get across is simply how do you know that what you are doing is fundamentally sound? I guess if you don't care that doesn't matter. But since we are presumably training a fighting method, I would think that would be important.

My point is that we can't KNOW if we don't practice doing it against competent people. Doing it and pulling it off against poorly skilled people doesn't show us anything significant. Like the Krav Maga instructor who can amke his escapes work against scrubs -- he believes what he is doing is good. But it is junk. The only way he has to see that is to get out and try it with competent grapplers. He'd see that immediately. He'd also see what is sound.

Our knowledge and understanding of WCK comes from our skill. If what we do is not fundamentally sound, it means we have a low-level of skill. And so it means we really don't know or understand what we are doing. Does that matter to you?

This isn't about feeling superior. Anyone who gets out an fight with competent people will NOT feel superior. And do you want to know why? Because they'll be getting their ass kicked regularly and consistently. That's why I don't make claims about myself -- I get beat up everytime I train. I'm sore right now. But that will be true of anyone, regardless of their skill level, who gets out and mixes things up with competent people.

I'm not saying this to hear my own voice to for any rep. I don't want a rep. I am saying these things because I wish that someone had told me these things 20 years ago. I probably wouldn't have believed them either. But at least they would have gotten me thinking.

[dirtyrat]

Fighting skills (skills in general) doesn't always come from fighting alone.

Learning is a matter of opening your mind to possibilites.

The problem with learning, is that most people try to take the subject matter and try to make it fit with what they already know in order to "make it work". In this way, most people learning ability is severely hampered.

Take children. Before the age of say7, their learning curve is high. They are "the empty cup". Then of course they reach an age where they think they know everything and becomes brats .

Many are attracted to Asian MA because we all heard stories of masters who defeat bigger and stronger opponents and do so effortlessly.

Of course, these are largely stories. But I have met at least two CMA teachers who skills fit the stories. They were smaller but I saw them handle larger guys effortlessly. I met at least one aikido guy who could apply his stuff against an unwillingly opponent. I of course thought it was a trick and call me disrepectful but I just had to test them myself and well....

Of course these guys were very secretive about their stuff. But I did observe that they had one thing in common. They thought outside the box. They carried themselves differently from most people. Despite their secretive ways, I felt fortunate to have met them. For they showed a whole new world of possibilites is waiting to be explored.

If someone was interested in a different way, I'll say this much. You start by taking a good long look at the mirror. Learn to be honest with yourself no matter how much it hurts. This is something very difficult for a lot of people, because they are always lying to themselves in one way or another. And that always narrow your field of view.

Fighting skills is more than learning to refine the physical skills. Step back and ask yourself why you're getting whooped and wondered if there's a different way. Open & expand your mind. Having a narrow point of view will only lead to superficial skills. Figure out the rest for yourself. Saying anything more will just lead to more useless bickering.

[t_niehoff]

Fighting skills (skills in general) doesn't always come from fighting alone.

Really? Then how else can you develop them? Do you think also that you can develop surfing skills without surfing?

Learning is a matter of opening your mind to possibilites.

Learning is more than opening your mind to possibilities. But, I'm also not talking about learning some skill, I'm talking about developing it. You can learn a fighting skill, for example, by watching someone. To develop that skill is a horse of a different color.

The problem with learning, is that most people try to take the subject matter and try to make it fit with what they already know in order to "make it work". In this way, most people learning ability is severely hampered.

Take children. Before the age of say7, their learning curve is high. They are "the empty cup". Then of course they reach an age where they think they know everything and becomes brats .

Learning and developing skills are not the same thing.

But I do agree that children learn and develop skills usually much more quickly. That has nothing to do with having an "empty cup" (another silly chinese metaphor, btw). It is that they are using their natural,in-born way of learning and developing.

Many are attracted to Asian MA because we all heard stories of masters who defeat bigger and stronger opponents and do so effortlessly.

Of course, these are largely stories. But I have met at least two CMA teachers who skills fit the stories. They were smaller but I saw them handle larger guys effortlessly. I met at least one aikido guy who could apply his stuff against an unwillingly opponent. I of course thought it was a trick and call me disrepectful but I just had to test them myself and well....

Royce Gracie at 180 lbs. beat Akebono at 400 lbs, the champion sumo wrestler. You can find many examples of skilled fighters beating bigger, stronger people.

Of course these guys were very secretive about their stuff. But I did observe that they had one thing in common. They thought outside the box. They carried themselves differently from most people. Despite their secretive ways, I felt fortunate to have met them. For they showed a whole new world of possibilites is waiting to be explored.

If someone was interested in a different way, I'll say this much. You start by taking a good long look at the mirror. Learn to be honest with yourself no matter how much it hurts. This is something very difficult for a lot of people, because they are always lying to themselves in one way or another. And that always narrow your field of view.

If someone wants to develop in any athletic activity, the way to go about it is do what other good athletes do.

Fighting skills is more than learning to refine the physical skills. Step back and ask yourself why you're getting whooped and wondered if there's a different way. Open & expand your mind. Having a narrow point of view will only lead to superficial skills. Figure out the rest for yourself. Saying anything more will just lead to more useless bickering.

Good advice.l

[sihing]

James, this is a true story. I used to train BJJ at a satellite school that shared space with a Krav Maga Academy. One day we saw them training ground defenses (escapes). It was crap. They were practicing them "alive" and we're in most cases pulling them off. But only because the Krav guys we're really crappy. A BJJ brown belt (who is a really nice guy) later tried to privately talk to the KM instructor and explain why what they were doing wasn't very good, why it opened them up to several submissions, how it could be easily countered, etc. The KM instructor didn't want to hear it.
Listen, if I was in this same situation, teaching ground defences, and a BJJ guy came up to me and said that what I was showing wasn't very good, I would take his advice absolutlely. This is his specialty, so why not? If I had the time and inclination I would study BJJ, MT and the such, but right now for me I can't. It's a personal choice. The question is this, and it has nothing to do with winning, but more about survival. I know this, if I have an encounter on the street, and the guy just happens to be a BJJ player, and it goes to the ground, I'm in trouble for sure, I know this already. What I have to do is KO him before this happens and this is the equation we all must solve when fighting on the street, utilizing our strengths against his weakness.


Let me ask you, if you were wanting to learn "ground defense", wouldn't you rather learn good, solid fundamentals that weren't self-limiting? That didn't depend on your opponent being crap? Or, since it is only self-defense and you will only be betting your life on it, that it really doesn't matter? After all, when are you going to meet anyone on the street that has any skill?
Like I said above, if I had the chance I would study BJJ, or at the very least have a personal experience with it. I'm not dumb enough to dispute it's effectiveness. The key thing to remember is this, all "fighters" whether skilled ring men or plain old street guys, have strengths and weakness, some are strikers some are grapplers take down guys, some can do a bit of both. On the street you don't know who is what, so you have no other option but to do what you do best, to the best of your ability. For all you know the guy your fighting is a good comp fighter, or just a scrub. My point is you don't know, and the element of unpredicability/surprise is relevant for both combatants. He who hits first has the better chance of success, as I'd rather be the aggressor than the defender on the street, if and when it comes to that. Also, IMO self protection is not about WINNING, rather it is about SURVIVAL. If all I need to do is get the guy or guys out of my space to give me the option of running or picking up a make shift weapon then that is all I need to do to survive.



You miss my point entirely. What I am trying to get across is simply how do you know that what you are doing is fundamentally sound? I guess if you don't care that doesn't matter. But since we are presumably training a fighting method, I would think that would be important.
Well you would think that when it comes to striking and you are training with guys that have at least 3 or 4 years of experience, they would know how to throw a half decent punch? As someone that has taught in a large school environment, I can't tell you how many times I have met people that are coming in to check us out, and when I ask them to attack me they don't have enough coordination to throw anything as decent as the people that have been training for awhile. Generally IMO, most people know little to nothing about throwing a punch in a half decent fashion, never mind taking someone down with control and position. Of course, if you meet up with a decent boxer or MT guy you will find it more difficult to deal with, and guess what they might find it difficult to deal with me as well, who's to say that is not true? Is it written in some book somewhere that boxers and MT guys automatically have no problem with WC methods of striking?

My point is that we can't KNOW if we don't practice doing it against competent people. Doing it and pulling it off against poorly skilled people doesn't show us anything significant. Like the Krav Maga instructor who can amke his escapes work against scrubs -- he believes what he is doing is good. But it is junk. The only way he has to see that is to get out and try it with competent grapplers. He'd see that immediately. He'd also see what is sound.
Being able to pull off what you are training in, whether or not it is against a scrub or not does show you that you have fundemental skills, because when you first came to learn it, you couldn't do it that way, so at the least you are better than when you first started learning. Now if your goal is to be able to pull this off against skilled guys from other fighting system (which is always a harder task to succeed at, regardless of your training method or style), then just do that, meet up with them, spar with them and learn from the experience. I'm seeing a pattern in your post, and that pattern is that WC guys are automatically at a disadvangtage against strikers from other systems, why is this so? Expecially when the WC guys are training virutually in the same way, with bag/pad work, sparring and the such?
Our knowledge and understanding of WCK comes from our skill. If what we do is not fundamentally sound, it means we have a low-level of skill. And so it means we really don't know or understand what we are doing. Does that matter to you?
I can have a high understanding of the training system, but if I don't apply it sometime during the training process I won't have that understanding. Chi sau is good for close in contact work, but if that is all you are doing you won't know how to enter or engage from a non contact position. To answer your question, yes a high understanding of the system is important to me.
This isn't about feeling superior. Anyone who gets out an fight with competent people will NOT feel superior. And do you want to know why? Because they'll be getting their ass kicked regularly and consistently. That's why I don't make claims about myself -- I get beat up everytime I train. I'm sore right now. But that will be true of anyone, regardless of their skill level, who gets out and mixes things up with competent people.

I'm not saying this to hear my own voice to for any rep. I don't want a rep. I am saying these things because I wish that someone had told me these things 20 years ago. I probably wouldn't have believed them either. But at least they would have gotten me thinking.
Well when you keep on repeating yourself, post after post, thread after thread, it sure looks like you like to hear yourself talk.

Sorry, still haven't mastered the multi quote function

James

[anerlich]

I don't want a rep.

It would seem that you have one anyway.

[Tom Kagan]

What I am saying is that if one opts to train against MMA or the like that is to their benefit. However, if one is more concerned with just being able to survive on the street such training is not needed. Of course, the best option for surviving a real life street encounter is avoidance.

If all a person wants is to survive on 'teh streetz' (whatever that means), learning a martial art is a waste of time. The vast majority of people already survive by merely going about their business every day. If they want to greatly improve their chances of surviving 'teh streetz', best they concern themselves with more mundane things like cholesterol, blood pressure, wearing a seat belt, etc.

However, if a person chooses to learn about themselves within the context of a fighting paradigm, then they may actually want to do a little bit of that fighting stuff. And while fighting a scrub may feed an ego, ultimately it's rather boring.

[dirtyrat]

I forgot the T's bio said he was an attorney; trained to argue/debate and twist things around to suit his purposes.

[chusauli]

Ah, attorney jokes - they run in the dozens.

People are people.

Attorneys do things to make their points and prove their cases. And they have critical thinking skills developed, too.

If you guys met T, you'd be surprised that he's not really that bad. But if I say that, that would just humanize him and make you hate him less.

[Tom Kagan]

I forgot the T's bio said he was an attorney; trained to argue/debate and twist things around to suit his purposes.

What does your bio say?

[dirtyrat]

What does your bio say?

Oh, nada...