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"in reply to the question about hitting someone with forearms headbutts etc etc etc , the result is always the same it takes longer to ko an opponent that to lock him up."
Bull S h i t, It takes one strike to knock an opponent out. In grappling it takes a takedown, gaining position then a submission.
"always will be unless you are a baddass mofo puncher. In which case you will destroy the guy, with one punch , so what the hell do you have to prove by going into the ring ???"
Again Bull S h i t, you had James Warring a former IBF cruiserweight champion fight Renzo Gracie and get taken down and submitted before landing a good punch. Whats did he have to prove, well it's simple he wanted to prove that
good striking was all you needed to be a good fighter. He was proven wrong.
"as for the gloves protecting the hands, what bunch of pussies believe that !!!! Youve never really trained on a makiwara or a rock filled bag have you ????"
This is a fact, since the fighters were forced to wear gloves there has been far less hand breakages in fights, which was getting out of hand in the first MMA tournaments. But hey, if you prefer no gloves then fine; it was an advantage to the strikers to have them.
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I think Gilbert Yvel proved that the striker can KO his opponent faster than most can submit them (The one kick KO on Big Daddy from Pride 10 I think?). Sure there have been some quick subs inside of a minute (Frank Shamrock vs Kevin Jackson, Sak vs Shannon the Cannon, etc), but now with more all around guys that can avoid takedowns better, the quick submissions are more and more rare these days.
They're all watching for the strikes now. The cycle continues, now the grapplers respect the strikes and are no longer so eager to rush in for the takedown, because the strikers are learned in their craft as well. I'd like to think it's evolution, but if you look at it, it's more like a history lesson. The styles are again becoming more well rounded. It won't be long before another martial arts "golden age" is upon us :)
As far as Helio losing to Kimura. C'mon man, that's a special case. Kimura didn't train Judo, he was Judo. The living embodiment of his style. That's all the man lived for. Well, so do the Gracies, but that doesn't mean losing to Kimura should be their ruin. I don't know if there are many others that could have taken him.
Jaguar Wong
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Jaguar, excellent again.
The Japanese have a saying "no one before Kimura, no one after," Meaning he's simply the best there ever was (so far)
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You know, this event format everyone is talking about is already codified in Vale Tudo.
By saying you want an exclusive "kung fu only" vale tudo event, you are making the unspoken presupposition that "kung fu" can't hang with "grapplers", which only reinforces what non-kungfuists are always harping on.
The format is already there - go fight vale tudo.
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Wow, I never knew that. I like that quote. :) I didn't even know much about Kimura until Ryu showed up here. After a little while, I finally started looking up info about him. I love finding info about the greats like Kimura, Mas Oyama, Ku Yu Cheong, Wong Fei Hung, etc...
Jaguar Wong
"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx
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Wongsifu has diahrreah of the mouth.Go rent some more UFC's and continue your bull****ting.BTW I hope your not talking about Kano or Kimura's fight with Helio.Noone got their arm broken, Helio choked Kano out and lost on points to kimura.It was sport jiu jitsu not fighting.Whatever, your a genius.
When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.
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That is what I was thinking too Watchmen
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WONGSIFU obviously has issues with BJJ...but to call Helio Gracie a fraud shows that he is and probably will never be a complete fighter.
A
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What do the kungfu guys in this thread mean by a tournament where you 'have to fight with your style'? I mean, seriously, give a practical definition of 'fight with your style' because I can't figure it out.
And what are wongsifu and the others arguing about? I can't seem to follow it. What does one side believe that the other doesn't (other than that so-and-so sucks; oh no they rock; no they suck! ... )
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Braden,
If and when you get it figured out...make sure and let me know, OK? :D
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Lost on points?? Where did you get that version, there were no points.
"During the fight, Kimura threw Gracie repeatedly with ippon-seoi-nage [one arm shoulder throw], osoto-gari [major outer reap], and harai-goshi [sweeping hip/loin]. He also included painful suffocating grappling techniques such as kuzure-kamishiho-gatame [modified upper four corner hold], kesa-gatame [scarf hold], sankaku-gatame [triangle hold]. Gracie proved to be a formidable opponent refusing to surrender after 12 minutes of grueling fight. Kimura then took Gracie down with an osoto-gari followed by kuzure-kamishiho-gatame. During the battle that followed, Gracie bridged out of the pin and right into Kimura's ude-garami (arm lock) [chicken-wing arm lock]. The arm bar must have been painful but when Gracie refused to surrender, Kimura applied yet more pressure, and as a result Gracie suffered a broken left elbow.
Even with the broken elbow, Gracie still refused to give up, so his comer "threw in the towel". Kimura was declared the winner by TKO. Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had the greater fighting spirit and will. Kimura later applauded Gracie's tremendous will to win."
http://members.tripod.com/~Stickgrap.../jimchen1.html
I heard that Helio used to say he had never been defeated but he actually had.
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I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I'm too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH
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"Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had the greater fighting spirit and will."
Is that what they told Helio in the ER?
It takes a substantial amount of will to break
someone's bones as well.
Fighting sprirt?
If that was a real fight Kimura would have killed Helio. Good thing it was a "match."
Xeb - you forgot the part about Helio insisting on the match after he defeated Kimura's pal.
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bai he...true...kimura did systematically beat helio. kimura was a remarkable man...he use to have nitemares sleeping cause he would hear the sound of broken bones...
A
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Byf ight with your style I mean I don't wanna see five animal fighters doing Tae Kwon Do. I don't want crane stylist throwing Jabs. I dont want Wing Chun Fighters throwing crosses. I want Kung Fu people to start actually using the flubbing Kung Fu they list as their style when they enter a tournament. The only way they(fellows in those tournaments) can improve is by doing it.
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