Troll Slayer
Exactly, but sort of the source of the problem. While no competant sifu I have ever known really thought that movement was static, in practice and in teaching it becomes very static, especially with beginners trying to get them to learn the "stances"Originally Posted by chusauli
Mah Sik, Gung Sik, etc
The "sik" is "posture" is it not
as opposed to Tau Bouh, where the bouh is "step"
just saying it really isn't so black and whilte in CMA
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Banned
"Horse stance training" can't teach you body mechanics -- only doing the task can teach or develop mechanics (for doing the task).
When your training is different than your practice, your training is poor.
Glorified TCMAist
stance training, jahm jong, teaches you awareness of alignment and structure, balance, etc ,which is needed for developing mechanics. They go hand in hand. Now, can you learn body mechanics without this training? Sure. This is in this respect, a method for isolating this one area of training. (not going into noi-gung here)
"My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"
"I will not be part of the generation
that killed Kung-Fu."
....step.
Banned
Mechanics DO something -- they are task-dependent. The mechanics for lifting (task) are different than the mechanics for pushing (task).
You can't learn or develop mechanics without DOING the task itself. You can't learn to ride a surf board by not riding a surfboard. Awareness of alignment, structure, balance come from USING your horse, from surfing, not by not surfing.
Stance/horse training is USING your horse, is USING your body.
上善若水
I disagree, chor ma （坐马） (i was wondering why it is called jahn jong here but discovered the northern kungfu refers to as that)
trains the beginning disciple the basics like balance, body structure, breathing and etc, once they are strong, then further instructions can be given like biu ma.
You cannot biu ma (referred to in another post here as the "BO") effectively without first having a strong ma.
Last edited by -木叶-; 07-14-2009 at 07:16 AM. Reason: Add in chinese
Glorified TCMAist
nobody is saying that static stance training is to be used in place of applied mechanics, rather, it is used in addition to doing the task.
Too many people focus on just one aspect, and harp on it, rather than seeing it as a synergistic approach to overall development.
"My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"
"I will not be part of the generation
that killed Kung-Fu."
....step.
Banned
So do you think that static surf board practice in addition to surfing is useful? Or that static horse training in boxing or wrestliing (which don't use it) would be useful?
A horse is dynamic, it is not static. Does practicing a dynamic thing in a static way make us better? How would, for example, practicing a car-pushing-horse (the body mechanics forpushing a car) in a static way be useful? Could you ever really develop a car-pushing-horse that way?
上善若水
Have you ever really dedicated yourself to training the static ma and discovered
its benefits? Maybe you have tried but only for a short period and then denounce
it already. That is the root i believe, of all your arguments.
Glorified TCMAist
everyone I know who surfs, first learned the correct stance and positioning before getting into the water. Nobody just took the board out and tried it.
Learning the proper stance, and structure is neccesary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcmu1Hvm2ms
As I stated above, stance training is PART of overall developmental training, and should not be confused for the WHOLE of the training.
Punching a wall bag is not the same as punching a head, is it? Should people go right into sparring without any foundational trainng?
"My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"
"I will not be part of the generation
that killed Kung-Fu."
....step.
Banned
Common sense and evidence is the root of all my arguments.
A horse is not static. It (a horse) is the underlying mechanics for DOING something, not for being static. You can't really learn, and certainly not develop, those mechanics by not doing whatever it is the mechanics are for. This is just common sense.
Boxing and wrestling are martial arts that use alignment, balance, structure, etc. too. Yet, they don't seem to be lacking in the results produced by their training -- without any static horse training. The evidence shows that this sort of "training" isn't necessary to produce good results.
Glorified TCMAist
shouldn't experience enter into the picture somewhere?
"My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"
"I will not be part of the generation
that killed Kung-Fu."
....step.
Banned
I agree that people first learn how to stand, how to place their feet, etc. on the board when it is not in the water. That takes all of ten or fifteen minutes! Then you hit the water. After that, no more board-in-the-sand-practice.
It's the same in all atheltics. The same in boxing, in wrestling, etc.
Static horse training and standing post are simply pointless exercises.
Banned
Experience is some of the evidence.shouldn't experience enter into the picture somewhere?
Glorified TCMAist
ok, that being said, do you find any value to SLT?
If so, then how long should it be practiced, and should it be practiced slow, fast, both, neither?
"My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"
"I will not be part of the generation
that killed Kung-Fu."
....step.
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