Wing Chun Stance Flawed

[TenTigers]

of course, this opens up yet another can of worms...
but that's really the fun of these forums. One discussion leads to another, bringing with it more insight.

[-木叶-]

Common sense and evidence is the root of all my arguments.

A horse is not static. It (a horse) is the underlying mechanics for DOING something, not for being static. You can't really learn, and certainly not develop, those mechanics by not doing whatever it is the mechanics are for. This is just common sense.

Boxing and wrestling are martial arts that use alignment, balance, structure, etc. too. Yet, they don't seem to be lacking in the results produced by their training -- without any static horse training. The evidence shows that this sort of "training" isn't necessary to produce good results.

No, other than common sense and evidence, you are also unconciously promoting
the fastest route, I.e. shortcut.

In martial arts, the longest way IS the shortcut.

[t_niehoff]

ok, that being said, do you find any value to SLT?
If so, then how long should it be practiced, and should it be practiced slow, fast, both, neither?

The SNT form isn't training, it doesn't develop anything. It is a "text" or reference to teach the various tools of WCK. I could similarly choreograph the tools of boxing into a form too -- so that beginners would have a "text" to refer to. But you can't really learn or develop the boxing tools from form practice. A form can only give you the shapes, actions, etc. The underlying mechanics can only be truly learned and developed by doing the task itself, by using the tools.

Some branches of WCK don't have forms or linked sets.

[TenTigers]

The SNT form isn't training, it doesn't develop anything. It is a "text" or reference to teach the various tools of WCK. I could similarly choreograph the tools of boxing into a form too -- so that beginners would have a "text" to refer to. But you can't really learn or develop the boxing tools from form practice. A form can only give you the shapes, actions, etc. The underlying mechanics can only be truly learned and developed by doing the task itself, by using the tools.

Some branches of WCK don't have forms or linked sets.

I dissagree. SLT forces the student to focus on developing proper structure, elbow position, and maintaining these neccesary alignments it throughout the movements.
Can it be done without the form? Sure. I am willing to bet that these systems that do not have the forms use drills and exercises that are found within the forms, but are isolated.

[t_niehoff]

No, other than common sense and evidence, you are also unconciously promoting
the fastest route, I.e. shortcut.

In martial arts, the longest way IS the shortcut.

Statements like the above are pretentious nonsense.

If someone wants to learn to throw the ball, practice really throwing the ball. That isn't a short-cut. It is how we learn and develop the ability to throw a ball.

[TenTigers]

that being said, wtf do I know?
I'm just a Hung Kuen and more recently,a SPM guy. I've only trained a little WCK over the years, so I am only going by what little I have picked up in this brief time, and applying what I've learned through other study and experience. I could be completely mistaken. So forgive my ignorance. I am just trying to understand my art.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms serve a purpose, the issue can be when forms, the prearranged ones, create more problem than they solve.
Many sports have "forms" or solo drills done "VS the air", but they tend to be wither free flowing like shadow boxing or they drill a specific movement as it is done in actuallity.
Most MA forms don't fall into that category, that they all should.

[t_niehoff]

I dissagree. SLT forces the student to focus on developing proper structure, elbow position, and maintaining these neccesary alignments it throughout the movements.
Can it be done without the form? Sure. I am willing to bet that these systems that do not have the forms use drills and exercises that are found within the forms, but are isolated.

How do you know from doing a form that your structure is "proper" or that your alignment is good or that you elbow position is correct or whatever? Without feedback, you can't know.

The feedback comes only by performing the task itself. You can't separate mechanics from the task.

You can NEVER get alignment, structure, etc. by practicing those things in the air. They are not in-the-air tools but contact tools, things we use when in contact with an opponent. So, they need to continually and constantly adapt to forces acting on us. Your horse that you do in the form is NOT the horse you use because the horse in the form is not dynamic. It can't be. It is merely a shape. How you stand on the surfboard in the sand is NOT the same as when you are on the water -- it can't be. The dynacism isn't there.

[TenTigers]

How do you know from doing a form that your structure is "proper" or that your alignment is good or that you elbow position is correct or whatever? Without feedback, you can't know.

The feedback comes only by performing the task itself. You can't separate mechanics from the task.

You can NEVER get alignment, structure, etc. by practicing those things in the air. They are not in-the-air tools but contact tools, things we use when in contact with an opponent. So, they need to continually and constantly adapt to forces acting on us. Your horse that you do in the form is NOT the horse you use because the horse in the form is not dynamic. It can't be. It is merely a shape. How you stand on the surfboard in the sand is NOT the same as when you are on the water -- it can't be. The dynacism isn't there.

The form is practiced under the strict guidance of a qualified Sifu, who can make on the spot, hands-on corrections and adjustments, eventually leading to the point where the student recognizes and understands this himself and internalizes the structures.
This is basic to any training IMHO.

[-木叶-]

Statements like the above are pretentious nonsense.

If someone wants to learn to throw the ball, practice really throwing the ball. That isn't a short-cut. It is how we learn and develop the ability to throw a ball.

Really, who is the one advocating the uselessness of forms and basics?
If that is not unconsciously telling the unaware student to skip them,
I don't know what it is then. Or perhaps asking a new student to go
and get beaten up without properly arming them with knowledge.

Trees with shallow root are easily uprooted.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The form is practiced under the strict guidance of a qualified Sifu, who can make on the spot, hands-on corrections and adjustments, eventually leading to the point where the student recognizes and understands this himself and internalizes the structures.
This is basic to any training IMHO.

Here is the thing, if technique A is designed to counter a over hand right and put the defender in optimum position to counter, how do you know if it is aligned properly unless someone drills that overhand right on a way that knocks you block off if you don't do it right? and does it in a way that makes it almost impossible for you to do it to begin with?

[TenTigers]

Statements like the above are pretentious nonsense.

If someone wants to learn to throw the ball, practice really throwing the ball. That isn't a short-cut. It is how we learn and develop the ability to throw a ball.

My Dad worked long hours, and didn't have alot of time to play with me. He also was not athletic. His hobbies were bowling and fishing.
I cannot throw for sh1t. I am strong, but I can't reach home plate from the outfield. Why? Because I was never actually taught how to properly throw a baseball by a qualified coach. I throw like a girl.
(I can, on the otherhand, do a great side arm flick cast under overhanging trees on a stream, and properly gaff and land a Mako.-I hate bowling)

[chusauli]

Good discussion, but I see you all talking past each other.

May I recommend some patented Pelvic Thrusting TM practice?

[t_niehoff]

Really, who is the one advocating the uselessness of forms and basics?
If that is not unconsciously telling the unaware student to skip them,
I don't know what it is then. Or perhaps asking a new student to go
and get beaten up without properly arming them with knowledge.

WCK, like boxing or wrestling or any martial art, isn't about "knowledge" -- it is about skill, the ability to do things. Certainly a trainee needs to be shown/taught the skill in question. But the skill is DOING it, not performing it in the air. You can't learn to use mechanics by not doing them, by not performing the task itself. Performing a tan sao in the air will never teach you how to really perform a tan sao. Never. The only way to develop that skill is by doing it, really doing it.

Trees with shallow root are easily uprooted.

And people who talk in cliches like fortune cookie are pretentious (don't I sound profound?) and lack understanding.

[t_niehoff]

My Dad worked long hours, and didn't have alot of time to play with me. He also was not athletic. His hobbies were bowling and fishing.
I cannot throw for sh1t. I am strong, but I can't reach home plate from the outfield. Why? Because I was never actually taught how to properly throw a baseball by a qualified coach. I throw like a girl.
(I can, on the otherhand, do a great side arm flick cast under overhanging trees on a stream, and properly gaff and land a Mako.-I hate bowling)

You don't need a coach to learn to throw a ball -- what you need is lots of practice. That's how every kid learns to throw, by throwing. Throwing is a skill. You develop a skill by doing it, by practice. Not from knowledge. Practice.

If you got out and played catch for an hour a day for a few months, your body would NATURALLY learn how to throw. You don't need a teacher or a coach. Doing the task itself is the teacher.