yip kin wing chun

[punchdrunk]

different and I'm not sure what the form is, but enjoy anyway.(some of the comments are hilarious).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PahbhzQIo&feature=fvw

very different from Yip Man but Wing Chun is just a name that many have used.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It looks typical of Indonesian styles. It seems to have deveated away from some of the more basic concepts. Then there is the little moves that are tossed in to make it look good. Wing Chun should be more direct and to the point without all the little cool moves and you should not violate your own center line.

[chusauli]

In SE Asia, they have clearly added some ideas of Hung Kuen or CLF in their WCK.

But people have to survive and take what they find will help them. Chinese had it hard in SE Asia.

[Eric Ling]

Robert,

Yip Kin and some lines of Cho Gar landed in SE Asia with previously added non-Wing Chun influences.

Hendrik would tell you that in Poon Yu (Ngar Wu or Crow Lake), Cho Gar ancestral home, where Cho Gar WCK first flourished, CLF and other styles were already taught there.

Different Cho Gar lines retained varying influences of these non-WCK forms with their individual transmission.

And Hendrik is right, some Cho Gar are better known as “Shaolin Opera” Kung Fu and not specifically WCK because of the heavy non-WCK elements.

No right or wrong here, different folks different strokes imho.

[chusauli]

No problem Eric!

I certainly agree. I know about the Cho family and am grateful for their preserving the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao seed. I think somehow that Yip Kin's line is somehow related to the Cho family.

If they modified their art for application, and it works, that's fine.

If they collected and taught a lot of forms and to support themselves in SEA, that's also fine.

If they liked what they were originally taught like (CLF and Hung Ga) and they combined it with WCK, that's fine, too.

People like variation. And there is always lots of local evolution for different reasons.

A pleasure chatting here!

[chusauli]

BTW, a thought - advanced CLF emphasizes Noi Liem Sao, akin to our sticking hands.

[Hendrik]

Eric,


IMHO,


This is where the Shao Lin term of the Opera or Cho family comes from


太平天國敗亡後，三合會眾以少林子弟互稱，共尊南少林寺(福建莆田)為祖廟。而當時五個武術社 團之主持則為 少林五老。故蔡李佛拳尊至善禪師為先祖。是南少林拳一種。


However the original of SLT which Yik kam passed down was from Miu Shun which is predated the Taiping heavenly Kingdom uprising. We know the source is White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang.





So what is the characteristics of the Yik Kam Wing Chun or SLT art?

The characteristic is body soft finger tip hard (contact point hard).




the characteristics of White Crane of Fujian is Body hard hand soft.
as it is said 要做到內節如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；中節吞墜，尾節如膠如漆，靈活多變。


and the characteristics of other art such as Hung gar is body hard hand hard
such as in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUXIRpv2h0



Most doesnt understand the Yik Kam's art because they dont have the transmission of the Body soft finger tip hard key.

And to get to the Body soft, one needs the Emei 12 Zhuang training to attain.



Yik kam went to Cho family and implant the Body soft finger tip hard concept to transform the Cho's art without have to change the shape or the style the Cho has learned.




So, the core of Cho family art is Body Soft finger tip hard, and that can be done in any external shape. However, today, these information are fade away, most doesnt know this even they still doing the sets from the Cho family but in fact they are no longer doing Yik Kam's art.



and when the SLT is done different then Body Soft finger tip hard, it is no longer SLT...
It becomes white crane if it was practice with the body hard hand soft concept. it becomes Hung gar or other southern chinese art if it was done with body hard hand hard.

Thus, just having the sets or copying the move of Yik Kam arts doesnt make it Yik Kam's art.

Why is it the needs of body soft finger tip hard?

because it is a close body art which required every inch of the body to issue force instead of rock solid to crush or iron vest type....etc. again that is the Emei DNA the snake body of the SLT.



The whole SLT set is just a vehicle to transform one into a Body soft finger tip hard Boomerang or sickle which cut every side forward and back ward.



Robert,

my favorite song and lyrics these days for describe my journey studying the art of Yik Kam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkoX8CmHXew




Just some thoughts.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Hendrik,

Firstly a caveat – I am not a Cho Gar Hang Jia. My knowledge comes primarily from interactions with Por Suk, Ku Choi Wah, Tony Yap and others from Cho Onn's lineage in Malaysia.

What you described; soft body hard fingers concept is manifested in many forms throughout various systems.

In White Crane, we say “Body like willow, hands like bullets”, since “bullets” is used, this idiom must have been introduced during Qing Chou.

“Needles in cotton” is another widespread expression of the same concept.

Some Fukien lines of White Crane, when talking about “7 Steps Sanchin” also use “7 steps needles” interchangeably. The latter terminology now only found amongst the older Fukien Pek Hok folks.

The Hung Gar Tit Sin you linked, imho, might not be best for evaluation.

In Singapore and Malaysia, back in the 60s & 70s, Hung Gar folks do a form known as “Kong Yau Kuen” or “Hard Soft Fists”. I am trying to shoot that form and post it. Apparently, this form is really rare these days.

As far as Yik Kam and his days in Cho Gar is concerned, I hear diverse versions from various quarters and really, find it hard to make any head or tail.

Talking to Por Suk, I learned that not only CLF and Hung Gar were taught during that time period in Cho Gar. Mok Gar, Chan Gar and even Lor Gar were routine.

Some of these lasted until present time in Poon Yu; many of the old skill sets are extant. Their version of “Fu Hok”, to me, is fascinating showing many features of “old Shaolin hands”.

Your White Crane + Emei source; I am really curious to look at old text pointing to this.

Maybe, you could show me when we get the opportunity to meet in the near future.

My knowledge of Emei is superficial but I do know a thing or 2 about White Crane.

Regards.

[TenTigers]

Hendrick, I must concur with Eric on Hung Kuen. People see one aspect and judge the whole by it. They see a person demonstrate Tiet Sien Kuen or the tension and hard methods and think that is the whole of Hung-Ga, when it is only one aspect.
Also depending on who is demonstrating.
Hard as Iron, Soft as Thread, Iron Bar wrapped in Cotton, and the manifestations of the twelve bridges are all soft contained within hard and hard contained within soft.
I ride a motorcycle. I brought it in to the shop for repairs. When I was there, I asked the mechanic,who was an expert in his field, if there were resources so I could do basic repair and maintenance on my bike.
(clutch adjustments,carburetor, etc)
He looked at me and answered,"I don't teach Kung-Fu."

[chusauli]

Your White Crane + Emei source; I am really curious to look at old text pointing to this.

Maybe, you could show me when we get the opportunity to meet in the near future.

My knowledge of Emei is superficial but I do know a thing or 2 about White Crane.

Regards.

Hi Eric,

You can see the Emei 12 Zhuang from Wu Xinliang's "Emei Martial Arts" set of VCDs.

Volume 3 of the VCD series is Emei Twelve Stakes (Standing Methods) (Emei Shi Er Zhuang, the famous set of standing exercises, combining movements with specific breathing).

When I first saw Hendrik's Siu Lien Tao set, it looked much like older Futshan WCK...when he shared the Kuen Kuit with me, I could see it was of quality teachings.

When I researched old books on Emei Shi Er Zhuang, I saw a lot of the similarities between the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao.

Of course, WCK has much similarities with Fujian Bai He. A look at the White Crane 5 element hands, and one can see immediate correspondences. You are too humble of your White Crane knowledge! I really like your Ba Bu Lian - would love to learn that from you!

Best regards,

[Hendrik]

Hendrick, I must concur with Eric on Hung Kuen.

People see one aspect and judge the whole by it. They see a person demonstrate Tiet Sien Kuen or the tension and hard methods and think that is the whole of Hung-Ga, when it is only one aspect.


Also depending on who is demonstrating.

Hard as Iron, Soft as Thread, Iron Bar wrapped in Cotton, and the manifestations of the twelve bridges are all soft contained within hard and hard contained within soft.

Ten Tiger,


For discussion,

You are correct on the description such as Iron Bar wrapped in Cotton, Body like willow, hands like bullets.....

See, at one point in my life I also see and think like you ; not until my sifus and older friends reveal to me those are too general a description and show me from the view of open the 8 special medirians.... Life changes after seeing that.


The cultivation process is a big thing. missing a split of hair missing 10000 miles.




for those who is interested in what I exactly refer to , look at the following clip on the dancer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znZxS...eature=related

The body is soft and the sword is sharp. That is what I am refering to.

and to get there, the SLT passed down by Yik Kam is using the Emei 12 zhuang's technology.



Iron wire will not get one into the above state, that is certain and a reality . Be interm of machanics or Qi cultivation.

[Hendrik]

As far as Yik Kam and his days in Cho Gar is concerned, I hear diverse versions from various quarters and really, find it hard to make any head or tail.

Talking to Por Suk, I learned that not only CLF and Hung Gar were taught during that time period in Cho Gar. Mok Gar, Chan Gar and even Lor Gar were routine.

I am actually expected that due to the involvement of Cho family with the Taiping Uprising.

also, even the same Cho student will have different way of doing their art.

This is due to I have seen family trees of the art transmission within Cho family, it is a fact that even between siheng dai not all transmission is the same. Siheng doesnt by default get the transmission. That is a fact.

IE: even if one got the set but without the Kuen kuit one's art will be different then the one have both the set and kuen kuit. not to mention, there are so many different sets which different people train in different set.

Some of these lasted until present time in Poon Yu; many of the old skill sets are extant. Their version of “Fu Hok”, to me, is fascinating showing many features of “old Shaolin hands”.

One can look at the Fu hok set as old Shao lin hands, however one could also related it to the emei 12 zhuang's contents when one using it to cultivate the spine or the Du medirians..... The fun part is every level one get deeper one sees different things and thus needs more indepth components to deal with a deeper level of the art.

Your White Crane + Emei source; I am really curious to look at old text pointing to this.

Maybe, you could show me when we get the opportunity to meet in the near future.

As Robert and others from my lineage has seen it. it is not a secret, in fact it is very basic stuffs. But that basic make the training very different.


If Poh Suk had shared his SLT Kuen kuit with you, if it is the same version of Kuen kuit I have, then lay both the Emei 12 Zhuang Kuen kuit with the SLT Kuen Kuit, one noticed the similarities....

[TenTigers]

"Iron wire will not get one into the above state, that is certain and a reality . Be interm of machanics or Qi cultivation. "

In the Tiet Sien Kuen, it contains a hidden meaning,'Gong noi yao Yau, Yau noi yao Gong'- "softness concealed in hard, hardness concealed in soft." But, "Gong Yau bing Gin"- "Hard and Soft walk hand in hand"-To the untrained eye, all they see is the hard. It depends on how you were taught, what your understanding is, and how it is played.
My exposure to WCK is limited, and my knowledge on Ngoh Mei is next to nil.
I do know a bit more about Hung Kuen, but I am still learning and discovering.
So as far as WCK goes, I differ to you on those matters. But, out of curiosity,
What is your experience with Hung Kuen, and more specifically, the sup yi kiu-sao and the Tiet Sien Kuen?

[Hendrik]

In the Tiet Sien Kuen, it contains a hidden meaning,'Gong noi yao Yau, Yau noi yao Gong'- "softness concealed in hard, hardness concealed in soft." But, "Gong Yau bing Gin"- "Hard and Soft walk hand in hand"-To the untrained eye, all they see is the hard. It depends on how you were taught, what your understanding is, and how it is played.

For me, it is the nature of the art which is making a different. How one were taught, what is one's understanding is, and how it is played matter but it doesnt change the corse.

IE: throwing a spear is not throwing a boomerang.

Sure, how one were taught ,what is one's understanding is, and how it is played
make a different in either Throwing a spear or boomerang.

However, no matter how one throw a boomerang will not become a spear.

and one cant claim what one throw is either or could be a boomerang or a spear But dont know is it a boomerang or spear.

My exposure to WCK is limited, and my knowledge on Ngoh Mei is next to nil.
I do know a bit more about Hung Kuen, but I am still learning and discovering.

So as far as WCK goes, I differ to you on those matters.

But, out of curiosity,
What is your experience with Hung Kuen, and more specifically, the sup yi kiu-sao and the Tiet Sien Kuen?

I dont practice Hung Kuen, however, knowing the nature of the force generation of Yee Chuan, Taiji, Emei 12 Zhuang, and YIK Kam's SLT.

Hung Kuen is certainly not Yee Chuan, Taiji, Emei 12 Zhuang, and Yik Kam's SLT. That is certain.

read the Iron wire set Kuen Po you will see its nature there.
and disregard how one practice Iron wire it cant develop the nature of Yee Chuan...etc.
or become the Snake slide Cocoon moves of the Emei 12 Zhuang or the One spontaneous let it be of Yik Kam SLT.

Those are different stuffs. it is not the external shape, it is all about how the body is transform , condition, and develop into. it is what it has become after practice a certain type of Kung which is the core of that art.



Usually, people dont know these because there are serious stuffs they are missing and never aware of. They go take Taiji class, they take Yee Chuan class , they take Xing Yi class, they takes WCK class...

But then when they punch they punch with exactly the same mechanism. and then they speculate All arts are the same. oh Xiying is just that five strikes and WCK has it too. Taiji is doing things slowly and we do SLT slowly and thus we are the same.....etc. all kind of speculation.

That is because they have not expose to what the nature of the art is and not train for the power generation of the particular art but using their own habitual way of generating power and all the art they learn are just a repeating external routine. They never really learn the art.

Then, Somedays, because they though "ah certain move in other art is great, so they mimic it in their set. " and think, "Oh I got it too....."


The world has been running like this for a long time.


Just some thoughts.

[chusauli]

"Iron wire will not get one into the above state, that is certain and a reality . Be interm of machanics or Qi cultivation. "

In the Tiet Sien Kuen, it contains a hidden meaning,'Gong noi yao Yau, Yau noi yao Gong'- "softness concealed in hard, hardness concealed in soft." But, "Gong Yau bing Gin"- "Hard and Soft walk hand in hand"-To the untrained eye, all they see is the hard. It depends on how you were taught, what your understanding is, and how it is played.
My exposure to WCK is limited, and my knowledge on Ngoh Mei is next to nil.
I do know a bit more about Hung Kuen, but I am still learning and discovering.
So as far as WCK goes, I differ to you on those matters. But, out of curiosity,
What is your experience with Hung Kuen, and more specifically, the sup yi kiu-sao and the Tiet Sien Kuen?

Rik,

I know a little bit about Hung Kuen, but I will say that Hung Kuen's Tiet Sien Kuen gives one many a bad habit with its overemphasis on hardness and breaking energy flow with pauses. It is not the constant energy flow as you see in WCK, or the energy taught in many Nei Jia. Compare it with SPM, and you know many gaps in the art. And as far as the Sup Yee Ji Kiu Sao go, unfortunately, more of it is lip service. Hung Ga Kuen is more in the realm of the muscular power, as opposed to the soft, structure force of WCK. Its no offence, and not that Hung Kuen is not a great art, but we are speaking of different things here.

WCK's energy is like pumping without release. Hung Kuen is like pumping with a hand pump and having to stop and rest...I hope this analogy is clear....