yip kin wing chun

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Eric Ling is a treasure and hero to the martial world today. His clips and open personality has encouraged many a master to openly share their art through many clips. It is an unparalleled achievement.

I saw he put up the rare book on Emei 12 Zhuang. It is a legacy for practitioners to study and further investigate the origins of Wing Chun Kuen. Thank you Eric!

Roobert,

Yup. I agree with you.

Best Regards

[Hendrik]

Eric,

if you like to use this one for Siau Tze Zhuang, Start 4.18/829.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

Russell has personally consulted the Emei Gate Keeper Gm Fu on the Siau Tze Zhuang of the 12 Post.


Best Regards
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

For information.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/show...0&postcount=10

[Hendrik]

Eric,

Just want to add that “12 Posts Qiqong” is not Emei exclusive, many other sects do something similar and if you zoom in, you are going to find much overlapping and possibly, all related somehow.

IMHO,

"This not Emei exclusive" you mention, need to be define.

Emei 12 Zhuang is an older system from Song Dynasty. Its documents as I know is kept in the Chinese Beijing Museum as for today, that is the position of this Emei art, Not just Qigong but a full internal cultivation system, in China's internal /healling/ martial art development history.
It is a Shen Kung.



This is one of the oldest mother of TCMA IMA.



As the ancient sayings says, missed a fraction of an inch lost a thousand mile.
One needs to be extremely careful when get into the internal cultivation realm.



So, my opinion is since we are going to do something for the ancestors, let's doing it in a very carefully, detail, and proper way so that the ancestors can rest in peace.




Best Regards
Hendrik

[Eric Ling]

Hendrik,

This will be the last post here in this forum.

Again let me stress a few things:-

• I am not going to debate with you on Emei and Cho Gar.
• I am simply presenting what I have collected and making a few comments along the way. Comments that I am very careful with so as not to antagonize the Ancestors like you said.
• Wing Chun is not my immediate scope of study. I am more pre-occupied with putting together my White Crane story and towards that end; I am working with folks who are the real experts on the mainland, Taiwan and various parts of SE Asia.

Back to topic at hand:-

I, for one, disagree with Joy that Emei is an earlier transmission point. Everything that I have studied indicates that Emei is post Shaolin and Wudang. Allow me a little time and I will post some clips in my blog to back up my case.

I do have, in my stash, many other works that are strikingly close to Emei 12 Zhuang but are not related to Emei per se.

I am no expert and that is why I am consulting masters around here who made it their lifetime’s study in this discipline to guide me. Many of my other articles are with them even as we speak.

You might not know this, I believe you left Penang already but Emei is taught in Malaysia and “12 Zhuang” is practiced there for many years now.

I appreciate and agree totally with your observation that we must not be flippant when presenting classical works.

Like I said, all I want to do is put up as much materials as possible for those who might find them useful for their investigations.

And when I do go wrong, I humbly apologize.

I am human.

Take Care and Warmest Regards.

Eric

[Vajramusti]

I am not arguing with you just correcting an apparent misuderstanding of what I sad.I did not say that Emei transmission was earlier than in Song San or Wudang. I said early not earlier-here is what I posted-

"Given my classical Indian background outside of wing chun- many of the ideas including from Emei seem to be extensions of what happened in the Buddhist transmission to China. Emei is an early transmission center.The results in energy control and development, the balancing and the fusions-snake and crane etc can be independently confirmable and some of it has been at different times...but when we get into chronology there can be confusion."


On Emei- a different source and quote:

"Emei Shan has been a Buddhist sanctuary since the third century when disciples of the Puxian form of Buddhism came and built temples to the Bodhisatva. In the ninth century, further temples were built when a delegation sent by a Song Dynasty emperor returned from India and stopped at Emei Shan. The Ming Dynasty also saw restoration of many temples as well as conversion of ancient Taoist temples to Buddhism."

Actually- CMA history is loaded with pitfalls. My main interest is in the art itself. Specially- the wing chun that has come Ip Man.With good guidance. practice and experience things can become self evident. In Buddhism as well good guidance, practice and experience helps with developing awareness.

You have done a valuable service with your posting of styles from SE Asia.

Regards,

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Eric,


Dont go away, your present is great for good discussion, I am here to only discuss and nothing else. so, please dont take it more then discussion.


*, I am not debate with anyone on Emei and SLT creation either. I just present what is found.


*, Similar to all of us, You certainly are free to comments.

*, I certainly would love to see your work on the White Crane.

I, for one, disagree with Joy that Emei is an earlier transmission point. Everything that I have studied indicates that Emei is post Shaolin and Wudang. Allow me a little time and I will post some clips in my blog to back up my case.

Ok to disagree.

IMHO,

To properly see what is going on , it is necessary to dig up the classical Buddhism/Daoism cultivation text such as The "Emei Treasured Lotus Canon” From Beijing Museum for root comparison.

It is only at that depth one will see.



In my understanding,
Emei 12 zhuang is based on Esoteric Buddhism teaching while Shao Lin is based on Chan teaching.

Evidentally, Emei 12 Zhuang' practice go as far as using the seed mantra Hum as in the buddhist basic esoteric/Varjayana/West China/Tibetian seed mantra Om Ah Hum to deal with the Zhen Qi of the body.

I have not seen those in the Chinese Chan Buddhism transmission such as Shao lin. and Wu Dang is Daoism, OM AH Hum is not Daoism's practice.


It is in this depth I am looking forward the comparison to be in.





In addition,

The following summary was from General Qi Jiguang at mid 1500.

今拳家，宋太祖
有三十二势长拳，又有六步拳、猴拳、囵拳，名势各有所称，
而实大同小异。至今之温家七十二行拳、三十六合锁、二十四
弃探马、八闪番、十二短，此亦善之善者也。吕红八下虽刚，
未及绵张短打，山东李半天之腿，鹰爪王之拿，千跌张之跌，
张伯敬之打。少林寺之棍，与青田棍法相兼；杨氏枪法与巴子
拳棍皆今之有名者，虽各有所（缺）传，有上而无下，有下而
无上，就可取胜於人，此不过偏於一隅。


The list here only listed Shao Lin's pole.

As for the close hand combats, no Shao lin and no Wudang.


So, as I suggest, if we going as deep as these type of record and the Lotus canon of Bejing, one will see what is going on.



This is also my point on the discussion the Yik Kam SLT kuen kuit.
if one goes far and deep down, the original face will reveal itself naturally. We dont have to do a thing. it will reveal.

I do have, in my stash, many other works that are strikingly close to Emei 12 Zhuang but are not related to Emei per se.

Certainly, possible.


IMHO,
There are lots of things can look the similar but will never get to the same attainment in the realm of Chinese internal cultivation.

So that call for details, details, and details.

I am no expert and that is why I am consulting masters around here who made it their lifetime’s study in this discipline to guide me. Many of my other articles are with them even as we speak.

Same here.

You might not know this, I believe you left Penang already but Emei is taught in Malaysia and “12 Zhuang” is practiced there for many years now.

Hope that those who train in the 12 Zhuang benifit from it. it is a good art, just mastering a small part will benifit health.




In my understanding, the Kou Lin Qigong, the Her Xiang zhuang Qigong also has components of the 12 Zhuang.

Emei is certainly not a secret after it was release to the public by late Gm Chow Chien Chuan in the mid of 1900 ; Chow is the first who release the art to the public since the creation.

Since Chow is the first person who release the 12 zhuang to the public in the 50's, it is very interesting to see the Cho's SLT kuen kuit of different version from different sources passed down from the 1850 red boat opera has 12 Zhuang's Kuit trace in them.



In additional, what I have heard, up to today, there are only a few who have good hanlding on all of 12 of the 12 Zhuang Mai Qi practice.


What I mean by handling is the ability to handle the Shen and Qi Mai as required by the 12 Zhuang, instead of just learn and repeating the movement.



Thus, IMHO, this handling issues also applied to the SLT from Yik Kam practice.
It is one thing to remember and repeat movements. There is a totally different thing to handle the Qi Mai. It is like living in a different paradigm.

As in the Cho family Kuit of SLT in SEA, one will notice the stanza/phrase, "Flow with the Mai Qi". Even in some of the post CLF SLT kuit I have seen this phrase remain.

Now, have anyone ask the question: What is this mean? How is the handling? What happen? What is the result? of this Flow with the Mai Qi?

So, just repeating motion or movement is not edequate. otherwise, the Ancetor will not keep reminding "Mai Qi" " Mai Qi" a few times in the SLT kuit.


Well, I open the can of worm here, and let those who is interested in this paradigm find out what happen to the Mai Qi how, and where is it from? BTW:
There are six components in this paradigm, Shape, Qi, Intention, Momentum, Jin (as power), and Shen. Go deep enough and you shall see.

I appreciate and agree totally with your observation that we must not be flippant when presenting classical works.

Yup. if we missing a fraction of an inch others will miss a thousand miles. we are just doing our job for the future generation and the ancestors.

Like I said, all I want to do is put up as much materials as possible for those who might find them useful for their investigations.

This is an excellent act of kindness from you. Lots of the future generation will be appreciated.

And when I do go wrong, I humbly apologize.

I am human.

Same here,

We all are human and none of us is perfect.




Best Regards
Hendrik