Wing Chun, Bak Mei, SPM, Lung Ying, how different are they?

[chusauli]

esox, I have no issues with you. I don't even disagree with you...I have no idea who you are, what you have trained in, for how long, etc. The youtube is convenient, it lets others who never saw the art to at least see what it is.

On a public forum, its all discussion, you can disagree without being disagreeable. I think Bak Mei and Lung Ying are very similar - they are taught often together, and Cheung Lei Chuen studied both arts. I think Lung Ying is softer and curved and Bak Mei is more linear. In retrospect, I think my Lung Ying using more left hand was off. I remember a Si Hing of mine telling me that...but it may be my faulty memory. When I learned some Bak Mei, Sam Tung Gor Kiu, Ying Jow Nim Kiu, and Lung Ying Mor Kiu were part of the curriculum, albeit with Bak Mei signatures.

Chu Ga Gao, Chow Ga, and Jook Lum all have strong similarities.

All Hakka systems use similar mechanics of Tun, Tou, Fou, Chum - WCK even has it.

I would really like to know more about your insights.

[esox]

I mean only to say that you could never appreciate the essence of a style you hadn't practised by watching someone perform it. I'm sure the same is true of your own style.

Youtube has some decent practitioners and loads of absolutely awful ones.

Yes lung ying is often taught as a precursor to pak mei as it is considered by some to aid the learning process and i would concede that for someone who didn't get too far there would appear some similarities, however when the path is trodden further the styles are so very different. lung ying has a different stance and attacks like a truck demolishing everything in it's path with relentless attack. Lung ying knows no retreat.

Pak mei is far more subtle in it's learning requiring much time to learn the source of it's power and speed but once learnt attacks with the ferocity of the tiger ripping and tearing the skin with fu jow technique.rapid attack coming from every angle. It goes from nothing to madness in a split second. Pak mei employs fu naan choy, phoenix eye fist, lung ying doesn't.

you will appreciate it's so difficult to put into words.

Before i'm done i'm not a subscriber to the Hakka thing, these people are said to have learnt a very early version of the style which clc then perfected over many years they may have learnt the style but it's not there style I believe.

Maybe due to our different nationalities you missed the degree of humour in my previous posts, disagreeable they were not intended to be

[esox]

I would like to add that for anyone interested in a much better explanation of pak mei, as previously discussed in another thread , I recommend Robert Yandle@s book Pak Mei A Dedication

[Hendrik]

rapid attack coming from every angle. It goes from nothing to madness in a split second.

Could you kindly share how is this done, particulaly how the power is generated?


Thanks.

[esox]

Could you kindly share how is this done, particulaly how the power is generated?


Thanks.

find a good teacher as I did, it certainly is not something that can be learned from a book or a video.
Recently when I read Yandle's description of this I realised more than ever that I would never have understood it had someone tried to explain, you have to develop it yourself through copying your teacher, being corrected constantly and hours of practise and I suppose were it any different it would not be worth knowing,

[Hendrik]

find a good teacher as I did, it certainly is not something that can be learned from a book or a video.
Recently when I read Yandle's description of this I realised more than ever that I would never have understood it had someone tried to explain, you have to develop it yourself through copying your teacher, being corrected constantly and hours of practise and I suppose were it any different it would not be worth knowing,

Thanks!

What is the Yandle's description which make your realised more?

Care to share?

[Phil Redmond]

. . . All Hakka systems use similar mechanics of Tun, Tou, Fou, Chum - WCK even has it. . . . .

You beat me to it. I used to watch the guys train JLPM at the Hung Ching club on Canal St in Manhattan. The circling wrists, strike and other aspects are very similar to WC. I've always wondered if the Hakka people influenced W since they setteled in Guangdong, Jiangxi, and Fujian .

[esox]

Thanks!

What is the Yandle's description which make your realised more?

Care to share?

Well one example would be where yandle explains that in our techniques we drop at the abdomen whilst rising at the hip. I read this statement and thought,that's got to be impossible ha.Later when training I realised that that is exactly what I do.
Now my only point is that I could never have learnt that movement from a book, from a video or online it came as an evolutionary process the result being I did
it without knowing.
These subtle things in our styles are not easy to see or explain but we know them, I know from my knowledge of wing chun, which I presume is your style that the subtleties of many techniques would be difficult to see or understand unless you'd built up that understanding through some years of training.

[Hendrik]

Well one example would be where yandle explains that in our techniques we drop at the abdomen whilst rising at the hip. I read this statement and thought,that's got to be impossible ha.Later when training I realised that that is exactly what I do.
Now my only point is that I could never have learnt that movement from a book, from a video or online it came as an evolutionary process the result being I did
it without knowing.

Thanks for sharing.

Ok, the lower abdoment breathing description. Good.

IMHO, there are plenty of those in the IMA.

[TenTigers]

that is the thing with learning Gung-Fu. You can't explain it, read about it, etc and get it. You need to really sweat over it, feel it, bang our head against the wall a few times, and when you eventually do get it, you then read the books, articles etc, and say,"Oh yeah, that's what they were talking about!"
I am at that point right now with my SPM. My teacher says, "I can't teach you how to get this. You need to just work, and ....get it." There are no drills, no forms, no writings, just plain old hard work, hands on, getting frustrated, hit, frustratedm hit...did I mention frustrated? LOL
But..for those of us who are doing this thing we do, that is precisely why we love it. Despite the mental, emotional frustration we go through, it is an incredibly rewarding experience, when we get even just a bit.
In SPM, they say,"If you get just a bit, you've gotten alot."
-probabaly written by someone whose been in my shoes....

[esox]

Thanks for sharing.

Ok, the lower abdoment breathing description. Good.

IMHO, there are plenty of those in the IMA.

no not the lower abdomen breathing description far far from it. Absolutely nothing to do with the breathing teqncnique which is totally seperate. I rest my case.

My only point in all of this was that you can't understand a style, any style, unless you've trained in it to a fair standered.

You seem to have a different agenda, good night

[Hendrik]

that is the thing with learning Gung-Fu. You can't explain it, read about it, etc and get it. You need to really sweat over it, feel it, bang our head against the wall a few times, and when you eventually do get it, you then read the books, articles etc, and say,"Oh yeah, that's what they were talking about!"

That is very true for 90% of the people.

But it is not so for those who did IMA well from a real sifu who has mastered the art. A clear direction and step by step attainment is a must.

One sure still need to spend lots of time on it even one is very clear on what is the direction. That is where one's kung fu comes.

But bang our head against the wall is not an option in serious IMA training.
In fact, in Chinese this is called Mang Xiu Xia lien or training in blind.

I am at that point right now with my SPM. My teacher says, "I can't teach you how to get this. You need to just work, and ....get it." There are no drills, no forms, no writings, just plain old hard work, hands on, getting frustrated, hit, frustratedm hit...did I mention frustrated? LOL

Since I dont do SPM, so I am not talking about SPM.

From my experience with WCK and IMA,
I really dont buy this above. If one can perform something with precision. One certainly will be very clear on what one is doing.

It is not plain old hard work. one can doing all the hard work by cooking a pile of sand , but the sand will never turn into Rice.

But..for those of us who are doing this thing we do, that is precisely why we love it. Despite the mental, emotional frustration we go through, it is an incredibly rewarding experience, when we get even just a bit.

I dont believe this either. This is a totally waste of life. so I am not belong to that group.

For example, a person who has heart issue needs to cultivate a type of qigong to heal the issue. There is no place for fuzzy-ness. EVen with laser clear direction one still needs to have a sifu making correction a few times before get the basic.

How will one get the result if all one have is fuzzy ideas and who knows will it works?

[Hendrik]

no not the lower abdomen breathing description far far from it. Absolutely nothing to do with the breathing teqncnique which is totally seperate. I rest my case.

OK. you say so.

For me, lower abdoment breathing, the motion of spine .. power generation...etc are an integration either one aware of it or not. BTW I am not taking about breathing technics but breathing/body interaction.

By reading /scanning into this part of the body one can read/scan to find out lots of stuffs on the art.

My only point in all of this was that you can't understand a style, any style, unless you've trained in it to a fair standered.

You are right in one way, one certainly has to trained in it to understand it.

On another hand, those who has advance state kung fu is be able to scan and read a style to a big degree.

You seem to have a different agenda, good night

since i dont know it all.
I have an agenda and that is to discuss in details to clarify what is it, instead of being fuzzy.

[TenTigers]

That is very true for 90% of the people.

But it is not so for those who did IMA well from a real sifu who has mastered the art. A clear direction and step by step attainment is a must.

One sure still need to spend lots of time on it even one is very clear on what is the direction. That is where one's kung fu comes.

But bang our head against the wall is not an option in serious IMA training.
In fact, in Chinese this is called Mang Xiu Xia lien or training in blind.

Well, I understand what you are saying. Clearly, you misunderstood what I was referring to. There is certainly a clear direction, and step by step attainment.
It is the development of skill, that takes the time and effort. Gung-Fu-RREAL Gung-Fu is taught through direct transmission. You must feel it, and cultivate it within yourself. In SPM, we call it, "Stealing your Sifu's hand." It is not to mean actually stealing, but trying to replicate the exact feel of your Sifu's hand. You do this by being on the recieving end and then trying to reproduce that exact feeling.
There is also a point, where the progress is brought about by the mind. When you think about what you are doing, and then create a self-evolution. Hard to describe, unless you have experienced this. Like trying to describe what chocolate tastes like.


Since I dont do SPM, so I am not talking about SPM.

From my experience with WCK and IMA,
I really dont buy this above. If one can perform something with precision. One certainly will be very clear on what one is doing.

It is not plain old hard work. one can doing all the hard work by cooking a pile of sand , but the sand will never turn into Rice.

again, we are NOT talking about no direction. On the contrary, the student is closely monitored by the Sifu, otherwise, the student can be practicing improperly and develop bad habits, or in the case of hei-gung, develop imbalances.
It doesn't matter whether you study SPM or not. If your skill is based upon relaxation, sensitivity, proper structure, etc these are basic understandings.

I dont believe this either. This is a totally waste of life. so I am not belong to that group.

For example, a person who has heart issue needs to cultivate a type of qigong to heal the issue. There is no place for fuzzy-ness. EVen with laser clear direction one still needs to have a sifu making correction a few times before get the basic.

How will one get the result if all one have is fuzzy ideas and who knows will it works?

it seems you have taken a mistaken interpetation of only part of a thought, and from this, drawn ridiculous conclusions. I am sure it is due to a language barrier, and the fact that we are not standing face to face. It is difficult to convey certain things on a forum. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[esox]

That is very true for 90% of the people.

But it is not so for those who did IMA well from a real sifu who has mastered the art. A clear direction and step by step attainment is a must.

One sure still need to spend lots of time on it even one is very clear on what is the direction. That is where one's kung fu comes.

But bang our head against the wall is not an option in serious IMA training.
In fact, in Chinese this is called Mang Xiu Xia lien or training in blind.






Since I dont do SPM, so I am not talking about SPM.

From my experience with WCK and IMA,
I really dont buy this above. If one can perform something with precision. One certainly will be very clear on what one is doing.

It is not plain old hard work. one can doing all the hard work by cooking a pile of sand , but the sand will never turn into Rice.




I dont believe this either. This is a totally waste of life. so I am not belong to that group.

For example, a person who has heart issue needs to cultivate a type of qigong to heal the issue. There is no place for fuzzy-ness. EVen with laser clear direction one still needs to have a sifu making correction a few times before get the basic.

How will one get the result if all one have is fuzzy ideas and who knows will it works?

how lucky you where to have such ability and insight without practice and learning, does not kung fu mean that attained by hard effort.