Crosstraining & Wing Chun

[Ultimatewingchun]

I believe at least one of these vids was discussed on a different thread not too long ago, but the subject is worth repeating, imo, and perhaps expounded upon further.

So let's start with these two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM57M8LBJqg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74oxk65AZ4

What are the possibilities you see here?

And would those possibilities make any difference in your effectiveness as a fighter?

Are you doing anything right now similar to what you see here?

Or is your wing chun good enough as is?

[t_niehoff]

A general comment:

To develop fighting skill - regardless of our art- we need to fight. Fighting skill only comes from fighting (practice). A corollary of that is not only do we need to fight to develop fighting skill, but the quality of that fighting (the level of our opponents) is critical. You are only as good as your training/sparring partners.

So, I think it imperative that we get out and mix it up regularly and consistently with good, competent, nonWCK people -- MMAists, boxers, MT boxers, etc. Only in that way can we develop competent fighting skills.

And while this sort of training is necessary if we want to develop beyond a very low level, to develop skill in fighting with WCK, we need to actually fight with WCK. You only get good at what you practice. If you go train with boxers and box or go train with kickboxers and kickbox, then you are developing boxing or kickboxing skills, not WCK skills. You are not learning how to use your WCK.

In my view, WCK is an approach to fighting, a particular game. That game is an attached fighitng game, it is controlling the opponent while striking him. The tools of WCK, the kuit, the drills, etc. all point to WCK being an inside, contact-based fighting method. None of that is consistent with "kickboxing".

Yet, when I see WCK people "spar" what I see for the most part is outside, noncontact "kickboxing". In my view, these people don't have one of the fundamentals of WCK, the faat (the method, the game). And that's why when we see them spar, we don't see most of the tools of WCK come out (they are contact tools, so we can't expect to see them come out in noncontact fighting).

[Ultimatewingchun]

Terence,

I agree that you need to fight/spar constantly with your wing chun - in order to truly make the art work for you.

I agree that the higher the quality of the people you work against - the better you will get.

I agree that you need to do these things against people skilled in other arts - in order to truly make wing chun work for you.

I agree that this should include people skilled in things like MMA, boxing, Muay Thai. (And in fact, I would also include things like wrestling, BJJ, karate, and kickboxing).

I agree that wing chun is a very close quarter striking art. And while I wouldn't call it "an attached fighting game" - I do agree that wing chun is about controlling the opponent while striking him, as you put it, and I'll add: from very close quarters. And I like your term ,"an inside contact-based fighting method." So we don't have to split hairs, because I think so far we're basically talking about the same thing.

BUT HERE IS WHERE I DISAGREE: Fighting on the inside requires that you first get there - without getting busted up while trying to get in...and that you stay there...no closer, (ie.- takedown-to-ground)...and no further away (he recreates the longer distance space you momentarily might have taken away).

So I have issues when you go on to say this:

"Yet, when I see WCK people 'spar' what I see for the most part is outside, noncontact 'kickboxing'. In my view, these people don't have one of the fundamentals of WCK, the faat (the method, the game). And that's why when we see them spar, we don't see most of the tools of WCK come out (they are contact tools, so we can't expect to see them come out in noncontact fighting)."
.............................

***IMO, the erroneous assumption you make is that you can get to the "contact tools" range, as you put it - ONLY USING A CONTACT TOOL METHOD.

In fact, you contradict yourself when you write "they (WCK) are contact tools, so we can't expect to see them come out in noncontact fighting" - but then you also complain about the "kickboxing" look from noncontact range.

THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. You can't have it both ways.

But you have named the problem even if your conclusions don't add up. And the problem is often very noticable when watching a wing chun fighter spar just about anybody with longer range striking skills - but especially so if the opponent with the longer range game also has a longer reach due to his size.

Take another look at Aaron Baum's mma fight that was posted recently. And notice how many times he used longer range (boxing-type) round punches as a means to close the gap to the "contact range" - and also take note that he did it against someone his size. (And I applaud the fact that he did it while using some nice protection of his centerline - in terms of his hand positioning and his body alignment/structure).

But suppose his opponent was much taller. Or even if the opponent he did fight had demonstrated better boxing/kickboxing longer range skills. Imo, Aaron would have been forced to throw even more looping boxing-type punches (or perhaps longer reaching straight boxing type leads, or maybe he would have been forced to throw more kicks to bridge the gap - or perhaps he would have had to shoot for a clinch or a takedown more than he did).

So while I agree that often times wing chun sparring looks like a "kickboxing" match, I would say that it's not necessarily because they don't have the "fundamentals of WCK", as you put it; but rather they have yet to master the art of getting safely to the range where their "contact fighting" skills can work for them against a skilled, longer range striker.

And THAT ART doesn't really exist within WCK, per se. Now to be fair, methods of getting from non-contact to contact range do exist within certain limited WCK parameters - but those LIMITS are SIGNIFICANT when up against the very people you yourself advocate going up against.

[Edmund]

Take another look at Aaron Baum's mma fight that was posted recently. And notice how many times he used longer range (boxing-type) round punches as a means to close the gap to the "contact range" - and also take note that he did it against someone his size. (And I applaud the fact that he did it while using some nice protection of his centerline - in terms of his hand positioning and his body alignment/structure).

But suppose his opponent was much taller. Or even if the opponent he did fight had demonstrated better boxing/kickboxing longer range skills. Imo, Aaron would have been forced to throw even more looping boxing-type punches (or perhaps longer reaching straight boxing type leads, or maybe he would have been forced to throw more kicks to bridge the gap - or perhaps he would have had to shoot for a clinch or a takedown more than he did).

I think that other fight clip put up recently is a better example.
Alan's student Alex had a K1 fight in a cage and he KOed the guy in 2 rounds.

http://www.northernfightleague.co.uk...right_Vs_Jones

He didn't swing looping punches. He just kicked from a distance, punched straight with both hands when his opponent was in reach, and grabbed the neck and kneed the guy when it was close.

[Pacman]

A general comment:

To develop fighting skill - regardless of our art- we need to fight. Fighting skill only comes from fighting (practice). A corollary of that is not only do we need to fight to develop fighting skill, but the quality of that fighting (the level of our opponents) is critical. You are only as good as your training/sparring partners.

So, I think it imperative that we get out and mix it up regularly and consistently with good, competent, nonWCK people -- MMAists, boxers, MT boxers, etc. Only in that way can we develop competent fighting skills.

And while this sort of training is necessary if we want to develop beyond a very low level, to develop skill in fighting with WCK, we need to actually fight with WCK. You only get good at what you practice. If you go train with boxers and box or go train with kickboxers and kickbox, then you are developing boxing or kickboxing skills, not WCK skills. You are not learning how to use your WCK.

In my view, WCK is an approach to fighting, a particular game. That game is an attached fighitng game, it is controlling the opponent while striking him. The tools of WCK, the kuit, the drills, etc. all point to WCK being an inside, contact-based fighting method. None of that is consistent with "kickboxing".

Yet, when I see WCK people "spar" what I see for the most part is outside, noncontact "kickboxing". In my view, these people don't have one of the fundamentals of WCK, the faat (the method, the game). And that's why when we see them spar, we don't see most of the tools of WCK come out (they are contact tools, so we can't expect to see them come out in noncontact fighting).

WOW. terrence i actually agree with you 75%

its not that WC has no game plan for being on the outside, its that most schools train sticky hands all day (which is actually an advanced excercise) and never learn how apply sticky hands to a real situation where you are on the outside and you do not start at an attached and close state

its because of this that people often say sticky hands is useless or fantasy--because they never learned WC's outside game--they just chain punch from a distance (which is funny because chain punching is actually best used as an inside move)

so regarding crosstraining, its good to spar people from all styles, but if you decide to learn different styles it can be difficult if the fighting and training philosophies conflict.

[Pacman]

Terence,

I agree that you need to fight/spar constantly with your wing chun - in order to truly make the art work for you.
...
Take another look at Aaron Baum's mma fight that was posted recently. And notice how many times he used longer range (boxing-type) round punches as a means to close the gap to the "contact range" - and also take note that he did it against someone his size. (And I applaud the fact that he did it while using some nice protection of his centerline - in terms of his hand positioning and his body alignment/structure).

hi victor, to me aaron seemed to rush his opponent while throwing punches very stiffly. yes he was closing the gap with round punches, but he might as well have been chain punching--a technque often frowned upon. IMO he won the fight because he was in better shape than the other guy

ive read other people saying he 'controlled the center'. i really dont see it. he came straight at the guy. they shared the center. no one had control. on top of that his hands were held wide, at the shoulder. elbows werent protecting his center

please help me understand

[Liddel]

I only saw the first clip....

What are the possibilities you see here?

Aside from the type of Gor Sau / Lop sau drill round 4 mins this is very similar to how i train but without the round kicks and ground.

Blending the technique side of training with conditioning methods is great if you have the right balance and this is how you train a fighter vs a hobbiest IMO.

And would those possibilities make any difference in your effectiveness as a fighter?

Of course they would they have spontaneous resistance and functional training IMO. These guys are fighting by the looks but they are lacking or rather have seperated that close range VT from the sparring to drilling IMO.

Are you doing anything right now similar to what you see here?

Like i said i dont have round kicks more stomps, no ground but most of the standup except for the drills where you recieve one action and give several back - that we dont do. everthing else i liked to see.

Or is your wing chun good enough as is?

If GSP is still training to get better at his level i dont think ill ever reach a stage where 'im good enough'... its a mindset IMO.

Good thread Vic...

Lets get back on topic though Pac, T.

DREW

[Pacman]

And THAT ART doesn't really exist within WCK, per se. Now to be fair, methods of getting from non-contact to contact range do exist within certain limited WCK parameters - but those LIMITS are SIGNIFICANT when up against the very people you yourself advocate going up against.

IMO closing the gap is mostly about timing and angles. what tools do you need to close the gap that WC does not have?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"hi victor, to me aaron seemed to rush his opponent while throwing punches very stiffly. yes he was closing the gap with round punches, but he might as well have been chain punching--a technque often frowned upon. IMO he won the fight because he was in better shape than the other guy

ive read other people saying he 'controlled the center'. i really dont see it. he came straight at the guy. they shared the center. no one had control. on top of that his hands were held wide, at the shoulder. elbows werent protecting his center

please help me understand" (Pacman)

..........................................

***THE EFFECT of Aaron's looping punches are NOT the same as chain punching, because chain punches can be more easily timed, and the positioning of the arms/hands well accounted for when trying to time and counter them, ie.- you basically know where each punch is coming from and where they're going, and what the rhythm/speed of the attacking punches are...and therefore, with big looping round punches of your own, and some sidestepping or ducking (and possibly with tight hooks as well)...you can strike/go AROUND the area used by the chain puncher - and this can be especially effective if your arms are longer than the chain puncher's arms.

Aaron protected center (somewhat) by the positioning of his elbows near his sides, ie.- near his ribs..if not directly at (or very near) his centerline, per se, and even though his arms were not extended further out into the typical WCK jong sao position. This positioning can work from longer non-contact range - and still be considered, imo, to be within the parameters of "wing chun fighting", in theory. Why not? The control came, imo, as a result of his looping punches (while protecting center)...being able to pressure the opponent - due to the strong body alignment/rush/footwork behind the punches - which also added power to his attempts to gain control. And when up against the opponent he faced in this match, for the most part it worked.

And btw, here's a look at Aaron's fight for those of you who haven't seen it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49tbIUy5Qd0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gR3beL5CWo

[Pacman]

i understand what you are saying about his round punches not being the same as chain punches

my point about that is that he basically just blitzed the guy with a flurry of punches much like others i see winning matches by blitzing an opponent with chain punches.

im not trying to be a d1ck but i think we can say that rushing an opponent straight on throwing punches isn't a very skilled tactic.

to me, his arms were pretty darn far away from his center. you cant really get ****her out than that.

[mjw]

As my favorite WSL quote is something like be a master of the art not a slave to the art.

SO take what works for you. Then as for cross training if it's going to helpo you win then do it. I do both Wing Chun & BJJ and i think they compliment eachother nicely in regards to structure, balance, keeping pressure on the oponent etc etc.

[Edmund]

hi victor, to me aaron seemed to rush his opponent while throwing punches very stiffly. yes he was closing the gap with round punches, but he might as well have been chain punching--a technque often frowned upon. IMO he won the fight because he was in better shape than the other guy

I don't think so. The other guy was beaten up. That's what wore him down.

ive read other people saying he 'controlled the center'. i really dont see it. he came straight at the guy. they shared the center. no one had control. on top of that his hands were held wide, at the shoulder. elbows werent protecting his center

Once he *got* in contact he was controlling the center. He grabbed the neck or controlled the guy's arm or deeply underhooked. This prevented the guy from getting much offence in the clinch. The guy was turning his back in the clinch. Aaron was able to land good strikes in the clinch and got takedowns from there which let him ground and pound.

[grasshopper 2.0]

I totally agree with you. I do think wing chun has limited itself or is taught in a general sense that implicitly teaches a restrictive fighting method (sticky hands all the time, cooperative partners, "cool moves" performed at close range). But i don't think it's meant to be that way.

Sure we can look to other arts..but for me, it's used to better understand wing chun better, rather than doing the other art to deal with that situation. It's about giving yourself the opportunity to train against a non-wing chun punch or kick using wing chun...which is extremely rare in the wing chun kwoon. or to understand body mechanics, timing etc from a different perspective...to improve one's wing chun solutions.

Do you think a MMA, boxer, karateka, etc would drop what they're doing to learn wing chun if they came across some wing chun guy who was able to wipe them? or do you think they'd train their karate, or boxing more to deal with wing chun practitioner?

A general comment:

To develop fighting skill - regardless of our art- we need to fight. Fighting skill only comes from fighting (practice). A corollary of that is not only do we need to fight to develop fighting skill, but the quality of that fighting (the level of our opponents) is critical. You are only as good as your training/sparring partners.

So, I think it imperative that we get out and mix it up regularly and consistently with good, competent, nonWCK people -- MMAists, boxers, MT boxers, etc. Only in that way can we develop competent fighting skills.

And while this sort of training is necessary if we want to develop beyond a very low level, to develop skill in fighting with WCK, we need to actually fight with WCK. You only get good at what you practice. If you go train with boxers and box or go train with kickboxers and kickbox, then you are developing boxing or kickboxing skills, not WCK skills. You are not learning how to use your WCK.

In my view, WCK is an approach to fighting, a particular game. That game is an attached fighitng game, it is controlling the opponent while striking him. The tools of WCK, the kuit, the drills, etc. all point to WCK being an inside, contact-based fighting method. None of that is consistent with "kickboxing".

Yet, when I see WCK people "spar" what I see for the most part is outside, noncontact "kickboxing". In my view, these people don't have one of the fundamentals of WCK, the faat (the method, the game). And that's why when we see them spar, we don't see most of the tools of WCK come out (they are contact tools, so we can't expect to see them come out in noncontact fighting).

[Phil Redmond]

hi victor, to me aaron seemed to rush his opponent while throwing punches very stiffly. yes he was closing the gap with round punches, but he might as well have been chain punching--a technique often frowned upon. IMO he won the fight because he was in better shape than the other guy

ive read other people saying he 'controlled the center'. i really dont see it. he came straight at the guy. they shared the center. no one had control. on top of that his hands were held wide, at the shoulder. elbows weren't protecting his center

please help me understand

Sports teams have game plans or plays. But so does the other team. So one teams plan may or may not work against another team who wants to win as much as the other team. The same goes for fighters. To many people criticize a fight expecting to see a perfectly choreographed kung fu movie fight scene. Boxers aren't trained to use wild swinging punches but I've seen them do it under pressure or when tired. From what I see Alex stayed within WC and controlled the center as much as he could. I used to criticize fighters and say that he should have done this or that until I got hit really hard by a kick boxer named Jonas Nunez. You do what you can under pressure.
I say get into a ring/cage and fight someone. Not your classmate, buddy or whatever, but someone bent on crushing you. You'll see that you won't be able to pull off perfect techniques all the time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IF WC is a principle based system then, as long as the principles are respected, what it "looks like" is totally irrelevant.