Crosstraining & Wing Chun

[Frost]

perhaps these catch can moves arent as easily integrated into the bjj style as the darce choke.

you're right, the fact that we dont see it could suggest...but its not very solid.

after all, if it were not for royce gracie you might not have seen bjj in MMA for many years or ever. if some really fighter from a different style started winning lots of matches, you would probably lots of training centers specializing in his style sprouting up

there are many factors for what you see and what you don't see in comptetitive sport fighting other than something being useful or not.

But Barnett claims his stuff is 100% catch so it should be easy for him to pick up. Likewise most of the Japanese fighters claim a catch wrestling background not BJJ, and if they can’t pull off this move then perhaps that is a good indication that its not a very good move.

there are many factors for what you see and what you don't see in comptetitive sport fighting other than something being useful or not.[/QUOTE]

Umm no not really the major reason you see something in competitive sports is precisely because its effective. Hence wrestler like Matt Hughes started to learn BJJ moves like the arm bar and the RNC, and BJJ guys started to learn proper double leg take downs, its because these moves work that you see them.

If someone did come along with a new move and starts winning lots of matches with it (like they did with the Darce, the anaconda etc) it is adopted regardless of where it comes from.

But dispite all the catch instructionals out there and the numerous guys that must have watched this stuff and tried this move out in class and on there friends no one has popped up winning matches with it, that’s got to be a pretty solid reason for saying the moves is at best low percentage surly?


Oh and just checked again royler tapped to a triangle from eddies guard, plain old BJJ.

[Knifefighter]

And yes, it was the "twister" that Bravo used to submit Royler.

Bwhahahaaaa! You once again show your complete ignorance of anything grappling. Eddie submittend Royler with a TRIANGLE, NOT A TWISTER.

As far as the twister is concerned, it is a move learned by almost every high school wrestler. We called it the guillotine when I learned it back in H.S. wrestling. Eddie started using it in BJJ and Rigan called it the twister, since there already was a move called the guillotine in BJJ and it looked like your opponent was all twisted up.

[monji112000]

Not true, Pacman. Catch is a very scientific art, and in fact, it shares many similarities to jiu jitsu in that regard. It is true that, like basically all wrestling, one is taught to ride heavy and pin the man down by using body weight - but leverage is the most important ingredient, not physical strength. And when I say "pin" - I don't mean pining the shoulders for a three count.

That was always part of catch historically, along with submissions, but in today's catch world most people are going for submissions, and for crosstraining catch with striking arts...as well as using some jiu jitsu as well.

Here'some vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqmHr...eature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh2vVndc1Ok

Catch is a TOP GAME style. Allot of people see BJJ as a bottom game style (it isn't infact everything you do in catch is adapted to BJJ but not the other way around)

Those are the moves that Billy Robinson used as a "pro wrestler" - which he did for many years. But they are more "for show" than for anything else.

But on the mats behind closed doors, Billy had the reputation (as did two of his contemporaries, Lou Thesz and Karl Gotch)...as being a true submission expert - which, oddly enough within catch circles: one with those skills was known as a "HOOKER"...

the original idea behind that name being that they could "hook" you into a number of various submission holds.
.....................................

Btw, Lou Thesz used to talk about the abdominal stretch in REAL, LEGIT catch wrestling as being a hold that can best be gotten when on the ground - ie.- the very same move that Eddie Bravo now calls the "TWISTER" ...which, btw, he submitted Royler Gracie with.

The "Abdominal Stretch/Cobra Twist" - as it was known within pro wrestling circles, was done from a standing position (ie.- not very likely to happen against a skilled, resisting opponent).

These are two different submissions. The twister is a Neck crank. The twister has its name from how people look, Eddie claims he didn't call it that. He also claims that he learned it from high school wrestling.. which could be true. The also possible place he learned it was from his BJJ teacher JJ machado.. who also does that submission, and is known for it and similar submissions by his students. The difference is JJ never did the lockdown...

The fact is that BJJ for most people is still evolving, and includes any workable catch techniques. Is Catch evolving??

If your going to add something to your Wing Chun game, don't add a Top Game style, its not practical. JMO (hey What do I know I don't have 5,000 MMA fights or 10,000 wrestling matches.)

[Ultimatewingchun]

The fact that you think people bend over when you knee them in the stomach or strike them in the groin shows how little actual experience you have.

***PURE NONSENSE not even worthy of a response.

[taojkd]

Catch is a TOP GAME style. Allot of people see BJJ as a bottom game style (it isn't infact everything you do in catch is adapted to BJJ but not the other way around)

Um. No. BJJ is not a bottom game. It is a game of position no matter where you are.

a.) Establish position
b.) Establish hand control
c.) Work your game (i.e. Submission, or striking)

Everyone and their uncle comes up with new ways to submit people, but its crap if you cant establish and control the basic positions (side control-1,2,3, half guard, butterfly, knee-on-belly, north-south etc).

***PURE NONSENSE not even worthy of a response.

Just to clarify, which do u think is pure nonsense victor? Bending over to when you knee someone or KF's insinuation that you dont have a lot of experience?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Did someone mention high school wrestling? Okay, now here's what I recommend for those who are sincerely interested in the topic of catch wrestling. There's a documentary that was released 5 years ago about Lancashire catch as catch can wrestling, ie.- Billy Riley's school known as the "snake pit" in Wigan, England.

It's called: "CATCH, THE HOLD NOT TAKEN" (subtitled, "Wrestling hasn't always been a show").

In one part of the doc Dan Gable is interviewed, wherein he acknowledged that high school, college, and amateur wrestling, ie.- what he excelled at all those years, is the result of original catch as catch can wrestling. Let's put this another way: amateur free style wrestling is catch, but without the submissions, and with the emphasis on pinfalls.

Which of course means that plenty of submissions (hooks) were always just below the surface within amateur wrestling - so no one should be surprised that certain moves (ie.- the abdominal stretch) may have been taught within certain high school or college programs.

[Knifefighter]

In one part of the doc Dan Gable is interviewed, wherein he acknowledged that high school, college, and amateur wrestling, ie.- what he excelled at all those years, is the result of original catch as catch can wrestling. Let's put this another way: amateur free style wrestling is catch, but without the submissions, and with the emphasis on pinfalls.

Exactly... and then they evolved in two completely separate directions. Freestyle, folkstyle, and Greco evolved as competitive, athletic endeavors, while Catch evolved mostly into showmanship and worked matches.

[Knifefighter]

***PURE NONSENSE not even worthy of a response.

OK, let's say it is pure nonsense. Tell me how you use the knee and/or groin strikes when you use this to set up the Mr. Grommit Move. What do you do and how does your opponent respond?

[goju]

The fact that you think people bend over when you knee them in the stomach or strike them in the groin shows how little actual experience you have.

um they do bend overunless you knee or kick like a weakling

[monji112000]

Um. No. BJJ is not a bottom game. It is a game of position no matter where you are.

Well UM no. Many people in BJJ feel comfortable on the bottom, thats why allot of people THINK BJJ is a bottom game system. its not , I don't think it is, I never said I did. It encompasses all areas. Catch is fine, greco is amazing, Judo is wonderful ect.. but they all stay still and never evolve. This is because they are set based on the scoring and rules of their respective games. Or lack of a game in the case of Catch.

Many MANY people focus heavily on bottom game tactics. I'm not saying this is bad or good.. its just a fact. Catch has very if anything to offer from the bottom. So thats why so many people from that side of the fence train and are ranked in BJJ.
Erik Paulson is a wonderful example, and someone I personally look up to.

[Pacman]

Umm no not really the major reason you see something in competitive sports is precisely because its effective. Hence wrestler like Matt Hughes started to learn BJJ moves like the arm bar and the RNC, and BJJ guys started to learn proper double leg take downs, its because these moves work that you see them.

actually the reason you see this stuff in MMA is also because there are already long established histories and availabilities of trainers of each individual sport (bjj, boxing, MT, etc).

and the reason for the established history is that each art was turned into a sport, long before mma came along.

there are very few WC teachers, if any, who train students as competitively and as intensely for sport fighting

its not always the art that is lacking as much as the availability and quality of teachers in that art that determine its popularity in sport fighting

[taojkd]

but they all stay still and never evolve. This is because they are set based on the scoring and rules of their respective games. Or lack of a game in the case of Catch.

No. Actually BJJ is continuously evolving because of the sport and the competitions. People are putting on new DVD's with new submissions and specializing on techniques from new positions (rubber guard, de la riva guard, 50/50 guard) all the time. Some work better with GI, some work better with No-Gi some work better in MMA, but to say that they stay still and never evolve? Completely inaccurate. Its not like the competitions for grappling are all the same. The rules do tend to differ from state to state and from competition to competition.

[monji112000]

No. Actually BJJ is continuously evolving because of the sport and the competitions. People are putting on new DVD's with new submissions and specializing on techniques from new positions (rubber guard, de la riva guard, 50/50 guard) all the time. Some work better with GI, some work better with No-Gi some work better in MMA, but to say that they stay still and never evolve? Completely inaccurate. Its not like the competitions for grappling are all the same. The rules do tend to differ from state to state and from competition to competition.

sorry I didn't list BJJ as one of those for a reason. my post seemed vague in that respect. I believe that because of BJJ and submission wrestling's rules many styles can compete and allows for them to evolve. The specific games and styles I mentioned can all be incorporated and are . Thats why I said they don't evolve, they stay relatively still.. catch is catch, greco is greco, ect..

BJJ is constantly changing, and so is submission wrestling. So that clearly states my opinion.

Even as things change they don't change that much... its all small details most of the time or ideas from a unfamiliar perspective. Rarely do you see something from mars.

[goju]

you know the arm bar isnt purely a bjj move they have it in most graplling styles they even have it in karate and kung fu
who says judo has to evolve some arts are fine the way they are and dont need improving

[Knifefighter]

there are very few WC teachers, if any, who train students as competitively and as intensely for sport fighting

its not always the art that is lacking as much as the availability and quality of teachers in that art that determine its popularity in sport fighting

If there are a lack of quality teachers and most people don't train with intensity, that speaks volumes about what is lacking in the art.