Crosstraining & Wing Chun

[grasshopper 2.0]

Ronin: agreed! A roundhouse kick can be wing chun as much as a chain punch...

[sihing]

IF WC is a principle based system then, as long as the principles are respected, what it "looks like" is totally irrelevant.

WSL had a fight, the other guy lowered his head, he knee'd him and that was that. Fellow students watching critized WSL for using knee, "where is that technique in the forms??", to which WSL said, I used the closest weapon to the nearest target, that is Wing Chun.

enough said....

JR

[Phil Redmond]

IF WC is a principle based system then, as long as the principles are respected, what it "looks like" is totally irrelevant.

Exactly, yet people still say "that didn't look like WC"

[Pacman]

Sports teams have game plans or plays. But so does the other team. So one teams plan may or may not work against another team who wants to win as much as the other team. The same goes for fighters. To many people criticize a fight expecting to see a perfectly choreographed kung fu movie fight scene. Boxers aren't trained to use wild swinging punches but I've seen them do it under pressure or when tired. From what I see Alex stayed within WC and controlled the center as much as he could. I used to criticize fighters and say that he should have done this or that until I got hit really hard by a kick boxer named Jonas Nunez. You do what you can under pressure.
I say get into a ring/cage and fight someone. Not your classmate, buddy or whatever, but someone bent on crushing you. You'll see that you won't be able to pull off perfect techniques all the time.

agreed. you know what, i didnt say i could do better or anything like that. i definitely do not expect a perfectly choreographed fight--i for one know what pressure can do to you as that was a huge obstacle for me at first.

regardless of this, i think its perfectly reasonable to critique a person's fight for your benefit and for his. my teacher and my sihings critique me all the time.

i was objectively talking about the comments regarding to aaron controlling the center. all things aside, was he controlling the center? thats what i was asking.

[Pacman]

IF WC is a principle based system then, as long as the principles are respected, what it "looks like" is totally irrelevant.

i dont know who this is in response to, but *thumbs up*

Exactly, yet people still say "that didn't look like WC"

i use that phrase. i guess im not being specific, but when i say that i mean "my focal receptors alerted me that those moves and those techniques violate WC principles"

[Phil Redmond]

. . . i use that phrase. i guess im not being specific, but when i say that i mean "my focal receptors alerted me that those moves and those techniques violate WC principles"

But you're assuming that you know all WC principles from all lineages. Like Sihing said about Sibak WSL using a knee and someone saying that it wasn't WC. It was the closest weapon to the closest target and he won. We have a jump in our BJD form. Most people laugh and it and I understand why. But if a sword, staff, chain whip, or whatever was swung at my ankles I wouldn't just stand there because I thought it violated WC principles.

[Ultimatewingchun]

what I'm about to say?

On this "CROSSTRAINING AND WING CHUN" thread?
On the "SIMULTANEOUS BLOCKS + STRIKES DON'T WORK" thread?
On the "HOW DO YOU GET TO THE WING CHUN FINAL PRODUCT" thread?

Answer: On all of them.

Even though, at first glance, it looks as though it belongs most of all on the "SIMULTANEOUS BLOCKS + STRIKES DON'T WORK" thread. Where there's this big discussion going on about chain punches, and whether or not throwing 6-7-8 at top speed will do this? Will prove that?

No, just 2-3 at the most, before something else will be called for in the fight. Or something else will be forced upon you, ie.- your opponent clinches. And the key word here is FIGHT.

Fighting requires hitting people with power, kicking them with power, knees amd elbows the same thing. Ditto for takedowns, sweeps, shots to the legs, arm locks, neck cranks, chokes, etc.

Oh yeah, did I mention that you need power on your pak sao also? On your bong sao? (Better not let it collapse against your body when receiving a very powerful punch - even if you are trying to re-direct it). Did I mention the importance of power on your bil sao? Your lop sao? Your garn sao?

Otherwise, you're taking a big chance that you're going to get mauled - if it's a real fight. Or if it's a serious sparring match against a serious opponent.

Throw out the rule book, if the one you've been given pooh-poohs power. Hit with power. When using the wing chun vertical punch. Make each one count. Make each one hurt. For real. Not possible if you're going for speed and want to show people that you can hit them six times in less than two seconds.

And if it means throwing a big rear cross - that's what you do. A big left hook, that's what you do.

"Whoa?! That's not wing chun?!" Someone in your wing chun school just said to you after you dropped someone with a big left hook, or a very karate-looking rear front kick to the other guys' mid-section.

They don't know what they're talking about.

[Pacman]

But you're assuming that you know all WC principles from all lineages. Like Sihing said about Sibak WSL using a knee and someone saying that it wasn't WC. It was the closest weapon to the closest target and he won. We have a jump in our BJD form. Most people laugh and it and I understand why. But if a sword, staff, chain whip, or whatever was swung at my ankles I wouldn't just stand there because I thought it violated WC principles.

i understand what you are saying and it makes sense, but i was under the impression that protecting your center was pretty fundamental to WC regardless of lineage

i also thought that keeping centerline control (and not sharing the center) was also pretty fundamental.

[Phil Redmond]

i understand what you are saying and it makes sense, but i was under the impression that protecting your center was pretty fundamental to WC regardless of lineage

i also thought that keeping centerline control (and not sharing the center) was also pretty fundamental.

You are correct though sometimes you have to control your central line while facing your center line away from your opponent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Exactly, yet people still say "that didn't look like WC"

Well, to be honest, typically you can tell what someone does by how they fight.
CLF guys for example like their swinging punches and such, TKD guys kick a certain way, as do MT guys and Karate fighters, typically look like Karate fighters.
WC tends to only look like WC when it is done VS WC, probably because"
1- The majority of WC people train and fight vs other WC people.
2-WC is typically trained VS WC.
These aren't excuses, they are valid reasons.
When Karate was first exposed to MT or Boxing or went full contact, it ended up not looking like Karate, not only because the opponent wasn't doing Karate, to which the karateka was used to facing, but also because the Karateka was not used to going full contact with his karate.
What happened?
Karate learned to go full contact and learned to go VS other systems and, gradually, karate began looking like karate again.

This will happen to WC eventually.

[k gledhill]

The concepts of the system are guiding an attacking defensive response...

Attacking

How to be able to attack for 9 out of 10 second engagement [example time] ...

the techniques we develop are for this ability, to have a constant flowing attack...

Flowing

Whatever happens in that flow to keep the pressure and dominate is conceptually driven
with guidelines to optimize your ability....[see other threads ]

whatever happens to be available in the attack /concept/ flow ....

A guy takes a swing at you from too far so you low front kick him with enough force to lift him off his feet , he hits a wall behind him and falls to the sidewalk, as he tries to get back up you kick him in the head, like soccer ..ko. foot is nearest to target

You defend yourself & hit a guy , then po-pai him down a staircase of a nightclub , the flow went that direction ...so did he.

A guy swears at you , grabs your extended wrists and charges you, you instantly feel the power surges of his attempts to shove you into a wall behind you, you feel for the surge moment & turn and now he is where you were and gets slammed into the wall and trapped from escaping....not a planned technique but you improvise from chi-sao training...

I never used a atan sao as a block in 25 years of fighting or a bong, or a huen...
but kicks, punches, palms, elbows, ..er soccer kicks , stairs, walls ...feeling a song coming on , regrets , Ive had a few , but to few to mention ...and now...

I did it my way !

[Liddel]

IF WC is a principle based system then, as long as the principles are respected, what it "looks like" is totally irrelevant.

I think the general look is important. Going out on a limb here but.....

I think there is a big grey area. My issue is with people wanting to limit themselves with tags titles and lables.

IMO WC is a fighting art defined by specific body mechanics supported by theories and principals linking mechanics to a fighting strategy.

Most systems could fall into this discrption.

Therefore if you use actions which are foreign to the specifc body mechanics you train regardless of principals or theories adhered to, you arent utilising WC.

and theres no problem with that !

Why people insist that actions like round kicks are WC if they adhere to theories or principals is beyond me. as long as it works titles are irrelevant.

Theories and principals by there very nature are universal IMO, i.e you can apply a WC principal to another styles mechanic, but body mechanics are style specific, sure there is cross over between styles but they are in the minority to actions that are specific to one style.

So using actions that arent specifically WC mechanics is totally ok but IMHO to insist that it is WC rather than calling it 'joe bloggs WC' is silly and ignorant of what the crux of WC is.

Sure this idea gets blurred because there are so many differnet WC lineages and some have actions foreign to other lineages and so forth, but there are certain fundamentals i.e elbow behaviour that have to be present to really still be soley WC.

If you have round kicks with a different mechanic to the WC side kick then say you have a mix bag, no big deal.

The irony IMO is, even with the state of the WC reputation (being negitive in the MA community) people still insist on calling what they use WC when its far from it...WTF ?


I think cross training great but i dont BS people when they say what was that ? if ive learnt a habbit from sparring / fighting and its not from My VT toolbox.. then i say i was just improvising simple

DREW

[Pacman]

You are correct though sometimes you have to control your central line while facing your center line away from your opponent.

to me that sounds like your opponent now has the center. your opponent is now facing you at an angle, and you are not facing your opponent

[Pacman]

excellent post, liddel

i think your post helped clarify the situation

there are two issues here that people are lumping together into one argument.

1. what constitutes WC
2. what "works"

a lot of people here confuse what constitutes WC and using "what works" for them.

if a jump spin kick works for you then so be it. use it

but that doesnt make it WC, even if there is some weak connection that you can make by citing some kuen kuit

i read a lot of posts where people make huge stretches and leaps trying to qualify certain things as WC and to me that is ridiculous.

however it is not ridiculous to say "that worked for him".

for example the baum fight was not WC at all. and a lot of people try to say it is. that doesnt mean he doesnt get props for winning and being a talented fighter. im just saying its not WC

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's part one of several posts that are meant to be digested together. Let me state at the outset that they are not meant to be some sort of "Let's-admire-Bruce Lee" fest. No.

This thread is entitled CROSSTRAINING & WING CHUN, and that's why the next four posts are being made, even if what's here might be troubling to some. It's about what works, not what's politically correct on a wing chun forum.

.................................................. ..................

"Bruce Lee Was The Best Of His Time"
by Gene LeBell

Both Bruce Lee and Gene LeBell incurred the wrath of traditionalists because they attempted to modify the arts they learned to create a more functional way of fighting.

I met Bruce Lee for the first time during the filming of the television show The Green Hornet, on which he played a butler. He was a nice fellow. The stunt coordinator hired me, and I worked on quite a few episodes. During that time, I was able to get to know Bruce a little bit, and we even worked out together. He was the best martial artist of his time.

Bruce and I had a bond with the martial arts, and we would get together frequently. We worked out about 10 to 12 times at his place in Los Angeles' Chinatown and at my place. When I went to his place, he showed me what he did, and I showed him what I did. Although he seemed to love the finishing holds of grappling, it just wasn't commercially attractive at the time. Actually. it was because of my grappling and tumbling background that I was hired to do the television show-because I could take falls for Bruce.

Bruce is more famous now than he was when he was alive. He was an entertaining fellow who was very knowledgeable and very good at what he did. People may wonder just how good a martial artist Bruce Lee was. Well, as I said earlier. he was the best of his time. Also, many of his former students are doing very well today. That's a sign that he was a good martial artist and that he was able to make his students into good martial artists.

Bruce developed and performed his own style of kung fu. and a lot of the traditional guys didn't like it because it broke from Chinese tradition. I know what that is like because I had the same trouble when I tried to improve different martial arts by changing things for the better. I believe that anytime you can have an open mind and learn something new, then add It to Your repertoire, it's a good thing. It will only make You and your students more knowledgeable.

At first Bruce was not particularly receptive to the grappling art that I practiced, but he eventually warmed up to it somewhat. I thought that was great. I've always been a big believer in crosstraining, and I've practiced most of the major martial arts, as well as boxing and wrestling. I believe that a person who is involved with the martial arts should know as Much as he can about all styles. The martial artists that I disagree with are the ones that know only their art ' they don't know anything about other styles and they don't like anything else.

As I said, Bruce started out with sort of a negative opinion of grappling. but after we worked out. he demonstrated that he had an open mind when he acknowledged how practical it was for certain things; in certain situations". Some of the techniques I shared with him were leg locks, arm locks, hold downs and judo throws.

Bruce and I didn't agree on everything. For example. I've always been a believer in bobbing and weaving to avoid an opponent's punches - instead of blocking with your hands. Bruce's theory was to block a punch and then, strike back with your open hand or fist. My point of view was that it You can avoid absorbing blows in a match or a fight. - and then come in with offensive moves, You'll live a lot longer.

Although no one in the martial arts community today seems to have the same charisma that Bruce had, there are many great martial artists Out there teaching and competing. This statement is not intended to take anything away from Bruce. He was a leader and trendsetter. I wish he were still with us today.

About the Author. Gene LeBell is a stuntman, former American Athletic Union judo champion, professional wrestler and world-renowned grappling instructor. "
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