Simultaneous block + strikes don't work?

[Pacman]

I try not to assume anything really when in combat, as assumption requires thinking as a precursor, why would you be "thinking" during a fight? What I like about WC striking is that if the first one misses, the 2nd is right behind it, since there is no torque loading or swinging of the shoulders, the other hand is right there to adjust. The power is coming from the lower body, legs, connected to the hips, so it is like having a small hand gun with the power of a rifle or shotgun, so we can hit hard and adapt and not commit like one does in a "super punch". Also, one should be using listening skills if contact is made, which is part of the purpose of chi sau and sensitivity drills, it enhances adaptablility which is needed more when using a contact method such as WC. So in response, it is still more efficient to be able to KO with 1 strike than 2, the key thing is commitment and adaptability.

In WC I find the non telegraphic nature of it, and the idea that we don't strike until the position is secured or closer in, makes it effective and harder to stop. At the least, the aggressive nature, forward moving aspect of WC makes the other guy more defensive which is always a plus in a fight.

When ever I've sparred other guys, or seen my training partners/students spar we always get them moving backwards, as most cannot handle our ability to function closer in, while maintain control and ability. Now the problem with this in a competition is that a strategy can be developed against it, so it won't always work in that environment, but on the street, where no foreknowledge of the fight is present, it can work more effectively.

James

help me out im confused. before you said

Isn't it more efficient to throw 1 instead of 3?

but now it seems like you advocate WCs continuous nature?

[Lee Chiang Po]

It does not pay to attempt chain punching from a square off. It is used in certain situations only. I would use what appeared to be a backhand strike at an opponent who would instinctually throw up his hand to defend his face. I would grab his wrist and jerk him hard into my punch with the other hand, followed then by another 2 in rapid succession. I can still throw 120 punches in only 30 seconds, and any one of them could render you unconscious if connected on target, which would be the point of the chin. When jerked off your balance you can not avoid being struck on the point of your chin. It is the weakest point of your entire head, and it does not take a lot of power to render you unconsious.
Only a fool challenges an opponent. Never allow him to realize your intentions until you are punching him in the face. If you go jumping around and talking s--t he will be fully aware of your intentions and that will make your job way much harder. It can be somewhat like a gun fight. It all comes down to fires the first shot.

[sihing]

help me out im confused. before you said



but now it seems like you advocate WCs continuous nature?

My point was more in relation to the amount of punches needed to get the job done (power), and how in some WC systems the amount of punches per second is the goal (speed). WC is based on efficiency, so using "1 punch instead of 3" (as an example, according to rules of efficiency) is what it is about. I know that 1 punch will not do the trick some of the time, so it is important to be able to throw more, and WC provides that option, but like everything there is a limit to how effective that will be, as Sanjoro's post pointed out.

James

[Yoshiyahu]

This is a great discussion. I use to wonder about this when I was younger and found it useless at first. Until I begin to practice it by drilling, Chi Sau and Sparring.


In drilling you can endlessly do Tan Da, Pak Da, Bil Da, Jum Da and other attack and defense techniques. But in Chi Sau you are connected and your opponent can feel your intent. So if you are freestyling you will be able to utilize Tan Da and Pak da less in chi sau. But this is totally dependant on skill level of your partner. In Sparring Your ability to use this will be even less than it is in Chi Sau. Because if your really Sparring and have an opponet who is really struggling and try to control you so he can hit you then you will not be able to endless Tan Da every right cross.

When doing Tan Da and Pak da there are safe ways to apply it and not so safe ways to apply. Inside the opponents guards does leave you open from outward attacks. But if you use it tan da to open his guards then it works well for entry techniques. Me I choose Tan Da and Pak Da from the outside or outer flank to strike my opponents face. Its easier because you can turn his force away from your centerline while your attacking line is facing him. I call this the safe way to attack and defend. Although I train both.

When your actually fighting using attack and defend depends on timing which someone else mentions. But you will not be able to attack and defend everytime someone strikes at you.

Lets say we are fighting. I throw four punch combo really fast. The Average WChunner is not gonna be able to Tan Da all Four punches. Even if you use your other angles such as Tan-Gan-Jum-Bil while striking. If I switch up from one hand to other you may not have enough time to throw that punch out. Sometimes punching may provide an opening that you are covering. So you have to be wise in utilizing this technique. Its not be all to end all. Its a technique just like Tan Sau and Fok Sau and chainpunch. I hope you think all you need to do in a fight is front kick, chainpunch and tan sau from time to time. There is much more to your WC than those simple moves.

Any way drill Attack and Defend consecutively free style for 20 minutes with a partner who will feed you slow attacks at first progressing to faster attacks.

Use the following techniques to protect your gates.
1.Lop Da
2.Tan Da
3.Jut Da
4.Bil Da
5.Pak Da
6.Jum Da
7.Gan Da

Also I feel that simultaneous attack and defend work well with entry level techniques. Use Tan Da or Wu Da to turn your opponets attacking line away from you so you can hit him the face but he can't use his other arm to attack. Use pak da to drop his guard to strike. Or lop da to move an arm out the way. Also concerning timing with attack and defense. The best time to use it when you got a guy who overextends or over committs. But most skilled fighters won't do this too much. Unless they get anxious or sloppy.

But inconclusion Attack and Defend is a tool we should drill more and use...Its very great technique. Along with stop kicks and stop hits. But even stop hits and stop kicks can use as Attack and Defend techniques.



***WC hands do not actually block but they redirect energy. So actually you are not blocing but intercepting force and turning it off.

[Pacman]

have you learned the sup yee san sic or 12 seperate hand techniques

This is a great discussion. I use to wonder about this when I was younger and found it useless at first. Until I begin to practice it by drilling, Chi Sau and Sparring.


In drilling you can endlessly do Tan Da, Pak Da, Bil Da, Jum Da and other attack and defense techniques. But in Chi Sau you are connected and your opponent can feel your intent. So if you are freestyling you will be able to utilize Tan Da and Pak da less in chi sau. But this is totally dependant on skill level of your partner. In Sparring Your ability to use this will be even less than it is in Chi Sau. Because if your really Sparring and have an opponet who is really struggling and try to control you so he can hit you then you will not be able to endless Tan Da every right cross.

When doing Tan Da and Pak da there are safe ways to apply it and not so safe ways to apply. Inside the opponents guards does leave you open from outward attacks. But if you use it tan da to open his guards then it works well for entry techniques. Me I choose Tan Da and Pak Da from the outside or outer flank to strike my opponents face. Its easier because you can turn his force away from your centerline while your attacking line is facing him. I call this the safe way to attack and defend. Although I train both.

When your actually fighting using attack and defend depends on timing which someone else mentions. But you will not be able to attack and defend everytime someone strikes at you.

Lets say we are fighting. I throw four punch combo really fast. The Average WChunner is not gonna be able to Tan Da all Four punches. Even if you use your other angles such as Tan-Gan-Jum-Bil while striking. If I switch up from one hand to other you may not have enough time to throw that punch out. Sometimes punching may provide an opening that you are covering. So you have to be wise in utilizing this technique. Its not be all to end all. Its a technique just like Tan Sau and Fok Sau and chainpunch. I hope you think all you need to do in a fight is front kick, chainpunch and tan sau from time to time. There is much more to your WC than those simple moves.

Any way drill Attack and Defend consecutively free style for 20 minutes with a partner who will feed you slow attacks at first progressing to faster attacks.

Use the following techniques to protect your gates.
1.Lop Da
2.Tan Da
3.Jut Da
4.Bil Da
5.Pak Da
6.Jum Da
7.Gan Da

Also I feel that simultaneous attack and defend work well with entry level techniques. Use Tan Da or Wu Da to turn your opponets attacking line away from you so you can hit him the face but he can't use his other arm to attack. Use pak da to drop his guard to strike. Or lop da to move an arm out the way. Also concerning timing with attack and defense. The best time to use it when you got a guy who overextends or over committs. But most skilled fighters won't do this too much. Unless they get anxious or sloppy.

But inconclusion Attack and Defend is a tool we should drill more and use...Its very great technique. Along with stop kicks and stop hits. But even stop hits and stop kicks can use as Attack and Defend techniques.



***WC hands do not actually block but they redirect energy. So actually you are not blocing but intercepting force and turning it off.

[JPinAZ]

When your actually fighting using attack and defend depends on timing which someone else mentions. But you will not be able to attack and defend everytime someone strikes at you.

Lets say we are fighting. I throw four punch combo really fast. The Average WChunner is not gonna be able to Tan Da all Four punches. Even if you use your other angles such as Tan-Gan-Jum-Bil while striking. If I switch up from one hand to other you may not have enough time to throw that punch out. Sometimes punching may provide an opening that you are covering. So you have to be wise in utilizing this technique. Its not be all to end all. Its a technique just like Tan Sau and Fok Sau and chainpunch. I hope you think all you need to do in a fight is front kick, chainpunch and tan sau from time to time. There is much more to your WC than those simple moves.

I agree, you will be hard pressed to defend against a 4 punch combo with 4gate blocking for all 4 (ie, tan da, biu da, caan da, whatever). This would be chasing hands and technique vs. technique mindset, which IMO is not what WCK is about.

In WCK, after we deal with the first punch, IF using 4 gate blocking principals (tan da or whatever), we now have a bridge with our opponent. To not take advantage of that bridge connecting to our opponents COG and effect it would be a waste of a bridge. One should use that first engagement to start to setup to take the opponent's balance and slow his timing so he can't get off all 4 shots (if the first da doesn't really cut it, which in most cases it won't unless against a scrub). The second shot should be all he is even able to follow up with before we are in true position to break his structure and body alignment down and slow his actions to a crawl.

Of course nothing is ever perfect in a fight, and not everything goes as planned! But my main point is, our main goal shouldn't be blocking every punch thrown at us (whether simultaneous attack/defend or not). Nor should it be in thinking I use technique a, b, c and d against attacks f, g, h and I.
Our main goal should be to take away his abilities to throw punches in the first place with superior positioning and control of thier COG & parts and slowing down his actions (controlling the time and space of the fight) so we can strike more effectively and end the fight

Jonathan

[k gledhill]

tan da..... is one arm
jum da ...is one arm

etc...

all depends where you are to execute it/them, angles and tactics baby

[Yoshiyahu]

have you learned the sup yee san sic or 12 seperate hand techniques

Excellent Insight JPinaz I thoroughly enjoyed your opinion...Please feel free to share more!

Pacman my Sup Yee San Sik is different than yours. But I would love to learn yours too. I been looking for some videos that show the Sumnung San Sik that Rene Ritche books illustrates,

Our San Sik is as follows

1.Front Punch (Torque)
2.Parrallel Punch (Three Punch combo)
3.Continous Parrallel Punch (Flow from one punch to the other)
4.Down Punch
5.Down Side Punch
6.Continous Down Side Punch
7.Side Punch
8.Rotating Side Punch
9.Moving(Stepping) Side Punch
10.Moving(Stepping) Rotating Side Punch
11.Chain Punch (Three combo)
12.Continous Chain Punch

Also we have additional Drills that we do as well.
1.Stepping Chain Punch w/Front Kick
2. Tan Da (Tan Sau w/Punch)
3. Jum Da (Jum Sau w/Punch)
4.Pak Da (Pak Sau w/Punch)
5.Baliong
6.Leg Lifts
7.Front Kick and Hold
8.Circle outside Kick and Hold
9.Circle Inside Kick and Hold
10.Elbow to raising knee
11.Defensive Drill
12.Moving Gan Sau


There is more...but i will stop here....

[Pacman]

yeah SN took YKS' techniques and combined it with the techniques he learned from Cheung Bo and made his 12 san sik from that.

You have a bunch that I have no clue about and I'm sure you would say the same about my list!

Excellent Insight JPinaz I thoroughly enjoyed your opinion...Please feel free to share more!

Pacman my Sup Yee San Sik is different than yours. But I would love to learn yours too. I been looking for some videos that show the Sumnung San Sik that Rene Ritche books illustrates,

Our San Sik is as follows

1.Front Punch (Torque)
2.Parrallel Punch (Three Punch combo)
3.Continous Parrallel Punch (Flow from one punch to the other)
4.Down Punch
5.Down Side Punch
6.Continous Down Side Punch
7.Side Punch
8.Rotating Side Punch
9.Moving(Stepping) Side Punch
10.Moving(Stepping) Rotating Side Punch
11.Chain Punch (Three combo)
12.Continous Chain Punch

Also we have additional Drills that we do as well.
1.Stepping Chain Punch w/Front Kick
2. Tan Da (Tan Sau w/Punch)
3. Jum Da (Jum Sau w/Punch)
4.Pak Da (Pak Sau w/Punch)
5.Baliong
6.Leg Lifts
7.Front Kick and Hold
8.Circle outside Kick and Hold
9.Circle Inside Kick and Hold
10.Elbow to raising knee
11.Defensive Drill
12.Moving Gan Sau


There is more...but i will stop here....

[Yoshiyahu]

On the contrary your list is way similiar to mines...

Let me draw some comparisons. Our names are different but some of the actions are the same...Please the list will be some what jumbled as I pull words and combine them

Small List

a. Front punch (Meridan Punch)
b. Side Punch (Arrow Punch)
c.Rotating Side Punch (Single Dragon)
d. Parralell Punch (Side)

Your other techniques we do not have in our sup san sik:


These we do practice but not in our san sik:

I. Yin Yang Palms (High Low Gan Sau)

II. Outside & Inside Joining Hand (Kwun Sau inside the body or outside the flanks)

III. Detaining Join Arm (Huen Da) or (Kau Sau)

I am going by my feeble memory of your techniques. Trying to match the names correctly. I believe I am correct. But alot similiarites. An We practice Trianlge Palms in one of our two man drills. But freestyle persay.

I pray I am able to help you understand me?

[Pacman]

from the way that you describe it, i think it seems that my 12 san sik contains more movements.

for example your san sik has meridian punch, 3 combo chung choi, and continuous chung choi as 3 different san sik.

my san sik considers continuous chung choi and meridian punch as one san sik.

same goes for your parallel punches and side punches. essentially the same move but separated into different san sik.

btw, yin yang palms is actually tan sau + bong sau.

On the contrary your list is way similiar to mines...

Let me draw some comparisons. Our names are different but some of the actions are the same...Please the list will be some what jumbled as I pull words and combine them

Small List

a. Front punch (Meridan Punch)
b. Side Punch (Arrow Punch)
c.Rotating Side Punch (Single Dragon)
d. Parralell Punch (Side)

Your other techniques we do not have in our sup san sik:


These we do practice but not in our san sik:

I. Yin Yang Palms (High Low Gan Sau)

II. Outside & Inside Joining Hand (Kwun Sau inside the body or outside the flanks)

III. Detaining Join Arm (Huen Da) or (Kau Sau)

I am going by my feeble memory of your techniques. Trying to match the names correctly. I believe I am correct. But alot similiarites. An We practice Trianlge Palms in one of our two man drills. But freestyle persay.

I pray I am able to help you understand me?

[Yoshiyahu]

from the way that you describe it, i think it seems that my 12 san sik contains more movements.

for example your san sik has meridian punch, 3 combo chung choi, and continuous chung choi as 3 different san sik.

my san sik considers continuous chung choi and meridian punch as one san sik.

same goes for your parallel punches and side punches. essentially the same move but separated into different san sik.

btw, yin yang palms is actually tan sau + bong sau.

Interesting. I want to get a video up one day when I get a camera...Does anyone else have their San Sik up on video yet???

Yea i tried to give a crude explanation of comparison. I think i got yin yang palms and inside and outside mixed up...