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Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown
From my personal experience,
The big picture is correct.
As for,
How to get beyond the mind and see one's buddha nature, that needs a master.
After that how to practice to desolve all the habit, that also needs a method of cultivation.
Thus, it is called Cultivation after Enligtenment. That is the path of Zen.
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Hi Hendrik,
To once again quote Hui-Neng (paraphrased):
“If one is ready no teacher is necessary; if one is not ready, no teacher can help!”
There are other quotes by Hui-Neng that reinforce this view I believe. I will see if I can find any. I will also peruse Huang Po. I don't recall, off hand, any quotes, but if I find any I will post them.
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Scott,If one is ready no teacher is necessary;
The qoute above is off. It is not accord to the teaching of the Buddha and the Zen patriach.
If my memory serve, Hui-Neng said, if one capable to see one's original face by self studying Buddha dhama, then that is fine.
However, it is a fact in the six patriach sutra,
Even if one is capable to going beyond by oneself, such as Yong Chia. He needs to go to Hui-Neng for Mind seal syncronization.
if one is not capable of after hard studying then one needs to seek for a master.
And again,
it is not a believe, the bottom line is can one do it? if not then one a master to pointing the direction.
As forThat is misleading.if one is not ready, no teacher can help!
Even if one is not ready a Good Knowing advisor or teacher will point at a practice to move forward to the direction of enligtenment.
A good Zen master is like a dream waker, every instant is a good instant.
for there is no Time, past , present, and future is illusive. So, the journey cant be speculate as the above.
Just some experience
Last edited by Hendrik; 08-01-2009 at 09:46 PM.
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Hi Hendrik,
I am sorry, but you are mistaken. I anticipated that you might believe I was in error, so I took the liberty to locate the precise passage to which I am referring.
Below are five translations of the passage of which I speak. I think they pretty much speak for themselves.
The passage is from The Sutra of Hui-Neng within the section commonly entitled Prajna:
Translated by A.F. Price & Wong Mou-lam (1969):
“…those who enlighten themselves need no extraneous help. It is wrong to insist upon the idea that without the advice of the pious and learned we cannot obtain liberation. Why? Because it is by our innate wisdom that we enlighten ourselves, and even extraneous help and instructions of a pious and learned friend would be of no use if we were deluded by false doctrines and erroneous views.”
Translated by Philip B. Yampolsky (1967):
But if you awaken by yourself, do not rely on teachers outside. If you try to seek a teacher outside and hope to obtain deliverance, you will find it impossible. If you recognize the good teacher within your own mind, you have already obtained deliverance. If you are deluded in your own mind and harbor erroneous thoughts and contrary concepts, even though you go to an outside teacher [you will not be able to obtain salvation].
Translated by Thomas Cleary (1998):
Those who realize on their own do not need to seek outside. If you insist absolutely that a teacher is necessary in order to attain liberation, that is not right. Why? Because there is a teacher within one’s own mind that understands spontaneously. If you create falsehood, confusion, erroneous thought and delusion, then even if a teacher gives you instruction, it cannot help you.
Translated by John R. McRae (2000):
If you can become enlightened yourself, don’t rely on external seeking- don’t think I am saying you can only attain emancipation through [the help of] a spiritual compatriot other than yourself. This is not the case! Why? Within your own minds is a spiritual compatriot [who will help you] become enlightened by yourself! If you activate the false and deluded, you will become all mixed up with false thoughts. Although some external spiritual compatriots may be teachers, they cannot save you.
Translated by Bhikshuni Heng Yin (1977):
"If you are one who enlightens himself, you need not seek a teacher outside. If you insist that it is necessary to seek a Good Knowing Advisor in the hope of obtaining liberation, you are mistaken. Why? Within your own mind there is self-enlightenment which is a Knowing Advisor." "But if you give rise to deviant confusion, false thoughts, and perversions, although a Good Knowing Advisor external to you instructs you, he cannot save you."
There appears to be a pattern with humans, we appear to have a tendency to add to teachings in order to make them say what we “want” them to say; to make them reflect our own erroneous beliefs. This happens in other religions too.
The Book of Romans teaches that Christians are saved by grace alone and not by works, yet Christians constantly add behaviors/works that they say are required in order for one to be a “good” Christian. This is an erroneous view. They are either saved by grace alone or they are not. They cannot have it both ways.
The same thing occurs within Buddhism. The teachings are: Buddha mind is empty! Empty means empty of forms, that means inherently there are no dharmas and Dharmas. You cannot say Buddha mind is empty on the one hand and then insist that forms, dharmas and Dharmas are necessary. They are not necessary; they are useful expedients for those who need them. They are NOT a requirement! All dharmas, Dharmas, doctrines and forms are empty, not empty sometimes, not empty when we want them to be empty, but full at other times , they are ALWAYS empty!
If a person wants a teacher, or needs a teacher, that is fine. A teacher is merely a “useful expedient”, that is all. A teacher is NOT a necessity!
“Useful expedients” and teachers are inherently empty, that is they are without substance or form; they are illusory! But if the seeker is not ready, even an illusory teacher cannot help! This is because we are “saved” by our own efforts. And being saved by our own efforts, too, is illusory for "there is no one to save" and "no need to be saved"!
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You have good theory based on you mind and logic.
However,
The reality in Zen Buddhism is as the following
From the same The Sutra of the 6 th Patriarch, Hui Neng
(Translated by A.F.Price and Wong Mou-Lam)
Chapter VII. Temperament and Circumstances
Dhyana Master Hsuan Chiao of Yung Chia was born of a Tai family in Wenchow. As a youth, he studied sutras and shastras and was well-versed in the teaching of samatha (inhibition or quietude) and vipasyana (contemplation or discernment) of the T'ien T'ai School. Through the reading of the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra he realized intuitively the mystery of his own mind. A disciple of the Patriarch by the name of Hsuan Ts'e happened to pay him a visit. During the course of a long discussion, HsuanTs'e noticed that the utterance of his friend agreed virtually with the sayings of the various Patriarchs. Thereupon he asked, "May I know the name of your teacher who transmitted the Dharma to you?" "I had teachers to instruct me," replied Hsuan Chiao, "when I studied the sutras and the shastras of the vaipulya section.
But afterwards it was through the reading of the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra that I realized the significance of the Buddhacitta (the Buddha Mind); and I have not yet had any teacher to verify and confirm my knowledge." "Before the time of Bhisma Garjitasvara Raja Buddha," HsuanTs'e remarked, "it was possible (to dispense with the service of a teacher); but since that time, he who attains enlightenment without the aid and the confirmation of a teacher is a natural heretic."
"Will you, Sir, kindly act as my testifier," asked Hsuan Chiao. "My words carry no weight," replied his friend, "but in Ts'ao Ch'i there is the Sixth Patriarch, to whom visitors in great numbers come from all directions with the common object of having the Dharma transmitted to them. Should you wish to go there, I shall be pleased to accompany you." In due course they arrived at Ts'ao Ch'i and interviewed the Patriarch. Having circumambulated the Patriarch thrice, Hsuan Chiao stood still (i.e., without making obeisance to the Master) with the Buddhist staff in his hand. .....
Just some experience
Last edited by Hendrik; 08-02-2009 at 07:16 AM.
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Hi Hendrik,
You have misunderstood the context of the passage.
This comment is not a teaching of Hui-Neng, it was a comment describing a belief of Dhyana Master Hsuan Chiao . It was a limitation imposed by Dhyana Master Hsuan Chiao on himself due to his own erroneous thoughts and directly contradicts Hui-Neng's teachings within the Sutra.
Hui-Neng taught the use of "useful expedients" he used methods as necessary that were beneficial for each person and tailored to each individual’s needs.
If you feel the need to have a teacher, that is your privilege and your limitation. If you require a teacher as an "useful expedient" it is not my place or anyone else's to deprive you of your need/limitation!
You believe your experience demonstrates a need for a teacher, my experience demonstrates no need. I did not read Hui-Neng, reason through it and come to the conclusion no teacher is required. Hui-Neng says it plainly for all to see, to read, and to easily understand. There is no complicated philosophical language. There is no reasoning necessary. His meaning is clear! The only contrivance is the one that ignores clear and obvious teachings in order to support erroneous conclusions!
If you choose to ignore his teachings that is your prerogative and the consequences of ignoring him are yours to enjoy.
I have never had a teacher and have never needed one. All The Sutra of Hui-Neng has provided me, on this subject, is confirmation from an acknowledged Master of my own direct experience that no teacher is necessary, that is all!
Teachers are there for those who need them! Though I would say good ones are few and far between.
As Sat Hon's teacher said, "...students will come to you with chains of concepts and an unskillful teacher will give them another chain of concepts to carry around and they're both happy!"
We are each responsible for choosing our own teachers and accepting the chains we allow them to bestow upon us!
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Scott,
It doesnt matter who or which Dharma master or patriach. or what is one's reasoning or understanding.
Before the time of Bhisma Garjitasvara Raja Buddha," "it was possible (to dispense with the service of a teacher); but since that time, he who attains enlightenment without the aid and the confirmation of a teacher is a natural heretic."
Is the bottom line teach of the Buddha and the patriach of the past, present, and future.
The statement said nothing about Limitation but one needs to have a confirmation or mind seal syncronization.
Best Regards
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So,
What have you attain and what is your Buddha nature?
Could you please share with us?
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Hi Hendrik,
I agree....all Dharmas, dharmas, forms, methods, etc. are empty! There is no Dharma, dharma, formula, method, learning or action that results in Buddhahood! All are merely, "useful expedients" to occupy us until we no longer are attached to a single thing. It is attachment that leads to obstruction of the essence of mind! If nothing else we can point to Buddha himself to demonstrate it is unnecessary!
Who confirmed Buddha's awakening? No One!
Mind seal confirmation is a dharma. It is inherently empty and therefore unnecessary!
I see the error I made and thank you for bringing it to my attention! You will note that this comment was still not a direct statement made by Hui-Neng; neither does he confirm it with any other statement in the Sutra. Further it does not comport with the reality of the matter. It does not require a teacher in order for an individual to directly perceive his essence of mind, attain the Buddha Mind, etc.
The Sutra of Hui-Neng was compiled by his follower, Shen-hui. After Hui-Neng’s death his followers decided that the mind seal would be validated with the presentation of a copy of the Sutra of Hui-Neng. It was the method they used in order to try to protect Hui-Neng’s teachings from unauthorized variations, something that eventually occurred anyway; as it is in the nature of man to do so, as I previously mentioned.
The confirmation of mind seal is merely a housekeeping doctrine designed to maintain the orthodox teaching and has nothing to do with whether a person has actually come to perceive his essence of mind without obstruction! It is something that is only necessary if one wishes to continue to participate within the Orthodox Church, so to speak!
If it required confirmation then the mystics around the world could not report similar perceptions as Buddha, which they have!
If you insist that a “mind seal confirmation” is necessary in order for Buddha Mind to manifest, then please resolve the statement you have cited, with the statement I have cited!
There is clearly a discrepancy in the writings as you perceive them, but none as I perceive them. Please resolve the difference in the Sutra! Are we to believe what is reported to be a direct statement of Hui-Neng or what is reported to be a statement of one of his followers? Is it more likely that Hui-Neng was in error, or that one of his followers was in error? If they are both correct, then the different implications must be resolved!
I resolved and explained them from my own understanding and direct experience. Please do so from yours!
If Buddha stated, “Through the consummation of incomparable enlightenment I acquired not even the least thing”, how can there be anything to attain?
Further, Buddha said in verse #17 of “The Diamond Sutra”
“…in reality there is no formula that gives rise to the consummation of incomparable enlightenment.”
“…there was no formula by which the Tathagata attained the consummation of incomparable enlightenment.”
…there is actually no formula for the attainment of the consummation of incomparable enlightenment. The reason herein is that Tathagata is a signification implying all formulas. In case anyone says the Tathagata attained the consummation of incomparable enlightenment, I tell you Subhuti, that there is no formula by which the Buddha attained it!”
Requiring a mind seal confirmation falls under the category of a “formula”. Formula = Dharma, doctrine, dharma, method, etc.
There is no Buddha Nature, there is nothing to attain! I have not attained anything at all nor will I ever since there is nothing to attain! There is not even an “I” that can attain a single thing!
“From the first not a thing IS!” All Dharmas are empty, all dharmas are empty, all forms are empty, all methods are empty. Emptiness is empty, yet neither is it “not-empty”!
Resigned
Buddha "got it" when the little girl offered him some milk; all the other stuff he had been doing was just preparing himself to be able to accept the "truth" of what he was experiencing; it didn't have to be that event - it could have been any event; problem is, most people think "it couldn't have been that simple, otherwise everyone else, including me, would have gotten it by now"; so they invent all sort of pre-requisites, hoops to jump through, nigh impossible expectations on the part of the student, to basically create a lot of trial and tribulation that one has to go through before one thinks he / she is "worthy" enough, has suffered enough, has gone through enough, and only then, can one justify being "awakened";
so it seems even Buddha felt he had to jump through some hoops before being "allowed" to be awake; but still, people coming after had to invent a very dramatic story, basically a justification as to why he did; so who knows what really happened? the teachings of all great spiritual leaders have always been co-opted by those coming after - so to me, the only thing "trustworthy", is that he was hungry, he was offered some milk, he drank it, he wasn't hungry; that's it;
and that's why Hui Neng is so revolutionary - he was completely unschooled in anything, was just walkin' down the road one day, heard the teachings, and "got it";
Hui Neng is the liberator - he is the "proof" that everyone can just get it;
Krisnamurti is in a similar vein - and the thing about him is that his history is well-known and verifiable - he was groomed from childhood to be the next World Teacher of the Theosphists; and on the day he was named as such, he said "thanks, but no thanks" - Truth is a Pathless Land; that's it;
Resigned
PRAJNA PARAMITA HRIDAYA SUTRA (Perfect Wisdom Heart Sutra)
The Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva, residing in a state of deep meditation,
Realized that the five basic natures are empty of self-existence,
And thereby broke free from the bonds of all suffering and dangers.
Then, saying to the disciple Sariputa:
“Oh, Sariputa,
Form does not differ from emptiness,
Emptiness does not differ from form.
Form is emptiness,
Emptiness is form.
Perception, cognition, action and memory are also as such.
Oh, Sariputa,
All nature is manifestation of emptiness:
No beginning and no ending,
Nothing soiled, nothing pure,
No gain, no loss.
No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mind,
No forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touch or consciousness,
Neither visual realm, nor consciousness realm.
No ignorance, no end to ignorance,
No aging and death, no end to aging and death.
No suffering, no cause of suffering, no liberation from suffering, and no path out of suffering,
No wisdom and no realization.
Without clinging to anything,
A Bodhisattva who follows the Prajna Paramita
Is freed of all hindrance and obstruction in heart and mind,
And being therefore without fear,
Passes far beyond all delusions and fantasies,
Entering into the state of Ultimate Nirvana.
The Buddhas of the past, present and future,
Through their reliance on the Prajnaparamita,
Likewise attain the unsurpassable True Enlightenment that is without any falsehood.
Therefore, behold this Prajna Paramita
This radiant, clear mantra,
The unfailing, supreme mantra:
GATE, GATE, PARAGATE, PARASAMGATE, BODHI SVAHA!
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But where is his mind seal confirmation?
Resigned
I got yer mind seal right here (gives "Brooklyn hello");
Last edited by taai gihk yahn; 08-02-2009 at 02:52 PM.
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FOR BENEFITTING BEINGS, RESPONDING TO POTENTIALS ALWAYS
GENEROUSLY, THREE BODIES, FOUR WISDOMS ARE COMPLETE IN THE SUBSTANCE.
EIGHT LIBERATIONS, SIX SPIRITUAL POWERS ARE IN THE MIND- GROUND SEAL.
THE COMPLETE AND SUDDEN TEACHING IS WITHOUT SENTIMENT,
IF THERE IS DOUBT AND INDECISION, YOU SHOULD CONFRONT IT DIRECTLY.
IT IS NOT THAT THE MOUNTAIN SANGHAN INDULGES IN SELF AND OTHERS;
IT'S ONLY TO BE FEARED CULTIVATORS MIGHT FALL INTO THE PIT OF NIHILISM OR ETERNALISM.
"WRONG" IS NOT WRONG; "RIGHT" IS NOT RIGHT.
ERRING BY A HAIR'S BREADTH, ONE MISSES BY A THOUSAND MILES.
"RIGHT" WAS THE DRAGON-MAIDEN'S SUCCENLY ACHIEVING BUDDHAHOOD;
"WRONG" WAS GOOD STAR'S SINKING AND FALLING WHILE ALIVE.
------- THE SONG OF ENLIGHTENMENT
By Ch'an Master Hsuan Chuen of Yung Chia. the Dharma Successor of Hui-Neng and also the Dharma Successor of Master T'ien Kung who was the 7th Patriarch of the T'ien T'ai Sect. Yung Chia is called the "Overnight Enlightened One" by those who dwell at Ts'ao Ch'i.
Last edited by Hendrik; 08-02-2009 at 03:49 PM.
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And all this time I have been looking for it in my stamp book!
Isn't life strange!
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