Timeframes: Striking vs. grappling

[Lucas]

Not the case at all. I can tell you with impunity that every single MMA fighter and submission grappler would love it if standing locks actually worked a decent percentage of the time.

Safety has nothing to do with it. If they worked we'd be using them all the time.

If they worked AND were as dangerous as you say, they would be illegal in competitions.

The fact is, neither of those is true.

ya, ok, that makes sense to me. my question is how many mma fighters do put in a good amount of time training them? for instance, do people not put much time into them because they are relatively inneffective compared to ground work, or are they inneffetive because not many people have focused on them to the point they can make it work more often in competition.

dont get me wrong, i understand the strategic aspects of why one wouldnt waste time on standing locks, especially in a competative world where the time you spend on your bread and butter is whats going to give you your edge in the ring, i guess what im asking is that, in your opinion and or experience, do you think hypothetically speaking if someone were to make standing locks a core portion of their training, do you think they would show a higher degree of success in competition with these types of techniques? im pretty sure that wont and hasnt happened, but hypothetically speaking.

standing locks always seemed a bit riskier to me to train at full speed with full resistance, it just seems like a recipie for accidental damage on a regular basis. thats why i figured standing locks are on average trained compliant and often slow and very controlled.

[goju]

So, you'd be OK with that NHB match then?

lol now your backing out again dale you agreed to a stand up bareknuckle match
hell we can go till one of us gets ko'd or cant move anymore if you want i have no problem with that
i have the feeling your shying away from it because as ive heard on here your stand up skill are lacking considerably

[sanjuro_ronin]

ya, ok, that makes sense to me. my question is how many mma fighters do put in a good amount of time training them? for instance, do people not put much time into them because they are relatively inneffective compared to ground work, or are they inneffetive because not many people have focused on them to the point they can make it work more often in competition.

dont get me wrong, i understand the strategic aspects of why one wouldnt waste time on standing locks, especially in a competative world where the time you spend on your bread and butter is whats going to give you your edge in the ring, i guess what im asking is that, in your opinion and or experience, do you think hypothetically speaking if someone were to make standing locks a core portion of their training, do you think they would show a higher degree of success in competition with these types of techniques? im pretty sure that wont and hasnt happened, but hypothetically speaking.

standing locks always seemed a bit riskier to me to train at full speed with full resistance, it just seems like a recipie for accidental damage on a regular basis. thats why i figured standing locks are on average trained compliant and often slow and very controlled.

Standing locks put you in a very precarious position whiel standing, you have commited both hands to ONE limb, leaving they other limbs to do what they please whiel your ability to defend is being limited by your attempt to work a standing submission/control technique.
Most MMA who focus on the high percentage moves just won't "waste" the time trying to make a move work when there are so many other that need less trying.
Its the law of deminishing returns.

[couch]

Standing locks put you in a very precarious position whiel standing, you have commited both hands to ONE limb, leaving they other limbs to do what they please whiel your ability to defend is being limited by your attempt to work a standing submission/control technique.
Most MMA who focus on the high percentage moves just won't "waste" the time trying to make a move work when there are so many other that need less trying.
Its the law of deminishing returns.

Exactly what I was going to write.

A lot of MMA practitioners try and get into the gym 5 times a week for a few hours at a time when they are amateur. So the format is usually: 2x/week Muay Thai, 2x/week Grappling, 1x/week Wrestling/Takedown

When you have limited time, you do high percentage stuff that has worked over the years. If I only have 15 mins, I won't be doing my forms - I'll be hitting the heavy bag and working on striking more than anything.

Best,
K

[Lucas]

makes complete sense.

do you think that the times we've seen standing locks, these are generally impromptu and not part of the training regime?

[sanjuro_ronin]

makes complete sense.

do you think that the times we've seen standing locks, these are generally impromptu and not part of the training regime?

I think at one pint standing grappling was very popular, think clinch wrestling with locks.
Many of the bunkai in karate are COUNTERS to grappling attacks or attempted grabs, far more than counter to strikes.

[Frost]

if you watch proper chin na applied like yang jwing mings for example the locks are painful enough to make you stand on your tip toes so there isnt gonna be much fighting back and if there is then the next route would be to snap it
another thing also to take into consideration is alot of standing joint locks that are taught are crap and are not realisitc take bjj's standing locks for example i personal like bjj but i think their standing submission they have are some of the lousiest locks ive ever seen

How do you know his stuff is good?

I have never seen yangs jwing mings locks demonstrated on a resisting uncooperative opponent can you point me to where I can see this? I ask because every standing lock once locked in can be painful, it’s getting them locked in on someone trying to hurt you that’s the hard part and I have never seen yang show this against someone not a student.

The only time I have seen them to be effective is after several people have taken down and subdued someone, got them under control and then applied the locks, usually in a two on one situation.

Another question is why is so much of the standing locks taught in your opinion crap; surely to have been passed down from teacher to student over and over they must have a good use?

[Frost]

ya, ok, that makes sense to me. my question is how many mma fighters do put in a good amount of time training them? for instance, do people not put much time into them because they are relatively inneffective compared to ground work, or are they inneffetive because not many people have focused on them to the point they can make it work more often in competition.

dont get me wrong, i understand the strategic aspects of why one wouldnt waste time on standing locks, especially in a competative world where the time you spend on your bread and butter is whats going to give you your edge in the ring, i guess what im asking is that, in your opinion and or experience, do you think hypothetically speaking if someone were to make standing locks a core portion of their training, do you think they would show a higher degree of success in competition with these types of techniques? im pretty sure that wont and hasnt happened, but hypothetically speaking. .

Something to mention is that a lot of MMA fighters, especially those that have been a round a while have come from a traditional background, at least that seems to be the case here in the UK. Every gym I know of has 5 or 6 guys that have done traditional arts, (and thus have practised standing locks at one time or another.) So its not that the MMA fighters have not trained in these techniques, its that when they try to apply them in a realistic manner they find them almost impossible to pull off so then they go back to the high percentage stuff.

"standing locks always seemed a bit riskier to me to train at full speed with full resistance, it just seems like a recipie for accidental damage on a regular basis. thats why i figured standing locks are on average trained compliant and often slow and very controlled"

A lot of techniques, neck cranks, heel hooks etc are practised even though they can be more dangerous than other submissions because they work. As knifefighter said the notion fighters would shy away from a technique because of the risk to their opponent is wrong, they shy away from techniques they find hard to pull off in a realistic environment

[grasshopper 2.0]

I think I've said this before - such standing locks, etc are only to be pulled off when the opportunity presents itself (eg arm exposed) and cannot be forced into a situation where the standing lock can be performed. The guys that fight/compete make an effort to keep hands and arms in, coiled and not exposed so the opportunity of such locks aren't even there to begin with. If its not there, u can't perform it.

In mma calibre of fighting such opportinities would be so minute that u wouldn't even see an attempt at a standing lock as no arm would be exposed for such an opportunity

[Frost]

But don't you think that in most cases this will be always be the situation? Even drunk college lads who have only watched a few boxing matches will mostly keep there hands up and close and not leave them hanging out for someone to grab hold of, and if you do manage to get hold of one limb they normally have another hand free to hit you with and fight like help to get you off them.

So why bother to still spend time on training these things if they only work on substandard fighter and then only very rarely?

[goju]

when you punch or try to grab your arm i exposed
the chinese brought china in the battle feild because the mongolians were expert grappplers and they used china to counter their grappling
ill try to find an article on i found yesterday again on it hang on

[goju]

Kung Fu Chin Na Grappling Basics
by Noah Knapp
Excerpted from Kung Fu Grappling


Chin Na, or the study of joint, tendon, and muscle manipulation, is considered to be the true essence of all Kung Fu grappling. It is the practical application and ability of exploiting the body's limitations. There are many parts make up Chin Na training and all are a simply a piece of the solution and therefore all must be used in conjunction for true expertise.

Natural Torque


Every one of the joints in the body have a limited range of free movement. The term Natural Torque refers to the furthest extent that any one of these joints can be taken before catastrophic failure is caused in the joint. In other words, natural torque is the most a joint can be locked before breakage occurs. A small application of pressure past that point can render you opponent completely nullified.


Natural torque is an extremely important part of both Chin Na and Kung Fu grappling on the whole. The range of possible usage varies only by the discretion of the person performing the lock. Natural torque may mean gently, though thoroughly, controlling an opponent, or instead utilized to completely destroy one of an attacker's joints. Thus, through the course of the chapters, we will observe all appropriate offensive and defensive applications throughout the body.


Core Seeking


There is a practice throughout Kung Fu's training which reminds us to prepare for when things go wrong, not if. This is a very important lesson to remember during all training and grappling applications are no different. What if a lock doesn't work? What if a hold is released? What if the opponent is able to slip our grasp? These and many other possible situations can and do occur everyday to even the most experienced fi ghters. The difference between victory and defeat may be as simple as knowing what to do next.


It is not always necessary or even advisable to remove, reset, and resume if an application goes awry. Rather, knowing how to continue and move forward from a missed attempt can lead you to regain your advantage.




During a grappling attack, the human body's continuous system of muscles, ligaments, and joints can offer relief by simply releasing pressure from one area to another. While it is true that each individual part may only be able to offer a small bit of relief, when used as a whole, the body can offer many opportunities for escape. For example, a tightened wrist may fi nd ease if the elbow is rotated. Having said this, why only control an opponent's hand or arm when you can instead choose to control the entire person? And




And what if a break does occur? Arguments have long been made that you might entirely subdue an adversary by properly manipulating even their little fi nger, but what if this weak section of the body fails?


Honestly, any experienced fi ghter or grappler will understand that just because one part of their opponent's body may be broken, that the other sections still work fi ne. An opponent's fi nger may be completely destroyed during a fi ght, but that doesn't mean that they will have any intention of stopping their aggression. The only way to assure that you have completely subdued your opponent is to remove any chance they could have for further movement. Therefore, while it is possible to become victorious with anything from wrist locks to knee locks, it is always advisable to seek control of the entire opponent, not just part of them.


Knowing this, it is essential to continuously manipulate your opponent until submission is assured. Even if the event occurs that one attempt at a manipulation is lost, moving inward toward the core of the body and attempting a lock on the next possible joint may create the solution. Honestly, by doing this we are almost guaranteed to fi nd another opportunity waiting. The trick is to always move inward and toward the core of the body.


The above article is copyrighted by the author. All rights reserved.

[goju]

Chin Na For Cops
Chin Na is the Helping Hand That Police Officers Need to Make Thier Jobs Less Deadly









Page 1 of 2
Sir, can you please step out of your vehicle?”

Every day police officers are making “hands-on” contact with thousands of individuals: field interviews, searches, domestic calls at 4 a.m. Each situation requires a response with the appropriate manner and appropriate amount of force.

“Too many times, officers are in a position to use deadly force, because they don’t have any tools available to them,” explains former Burbank Chief of Police, Dave Newsham, who in 1992 brought in kung-fu grandmaster Don Baird to head the department’s defensive tactics program. “Any opportunity, we try and give our officers another option.”

Chin na provides police officers just that, because it’s a system of seizing and catching joints, tendons, ligaments, allowing the user to control an opponent’s body. Often gentle although sometimes severe, these techniques can create immense pain when applied correctly. By manipulating a finger or arm in different ways, a police officer can use the suspect’s body as leverage to control or arrest him.

China’s Grappling Art

Chin na isn’t an individual style, but an aspect of nearly all kung-fu styles in China. The word “chin” means “to seize or trap” and “na” means “to lock or break.”

For over 1,000 years, shaolin monks have trained in chin na, perfecting and honing techniques to the quality they are today. “It’s one thing to have techniques that were made up yesterday; it’s another to have ones that withstood the test of time in the most violent situations,” says Baird.

Based on more than just techniques, this system teaches the student principles of body mechanics and patience. You learn how to capture different parts of the body and the correct force required to be effective. The distance between you and the opponent, spatial orientation, intuition, reading an opponent through muscle shifting and body movement are only a few things chin na focuses on.

“To this day, chin na is one of the most effective training methods for Chinese military and police officers,” notes Baird. What made this system appealing was the ability to disable opponents without causing unnecessary harm. Our bodies are only meant to bend or twist at certain angles before feeling discomfort and then pain. When you grab and then manipulate a part of a person’s body in the correct way, you gain control over the rest of the body.




The suspect tries to grab the officer’s gun from behind.


The officer turns and pins the suspect’s hand to the holstered gun, kinking the suspect’s wrist.


An inside shot of the parry and wrist pressure



This photo shows the officer’s hand slipping to a grab/seize.


The officer turns further and prepares to lock/break the suspect’s arm.


The officer locks/breaks the suspect’s arm (this move can also lead to a strong takedown).



The Middle Ground

Police officers are in constant contact with people and are exposed to various kinds of resistance. To successfully handle that resistance and complete their sworn duty, an officer needs tools other than his service revolver and PR-24.

“Chin na is a wonderful middle ground area,” maintains Baird. “What better system to use in police work than chin na when its very definition is to seize and control and a police officer’s orders are to control the suspect?”

When arresting suspects, police are always aware of the “Force Continuum.” This is the series of steps between the initial contact with an individual, like asking someone to step out of a car, to lethal force, which is a gun being drawn or a baton pulled. Officers need more options in this middle ground and chin na provides that. By having more choices, officers can resolve difficult situations before the encounter escalates to a greater violence.* Police officers have thousands of rules they must follow when they enter a “hands-on” situation. Their actions could be scrutinized by their supervisor, a city attorney, a district attorney and even a civil court. If a department doesn’t approve of how an officer handled a situation, the officer could be suspended or terminated from his job. He can also be prosecuted if it’s shown he used improper force. Suspects often sue the officer, as well.

But anything goes with a suspect—they can hit, fight, even kill a cop with no pressure from the people around him. “Chin na gives police officers a middle ground where he can use appropriate techniques that keep him safe but also respects the suspect’s rights,” notes Baird.

These techniques provide ways to neutralize the situation without causing unnecessary or any greater harm to the suspect, while also ensuring the police officer’s safety. “Chin na, in a way, allows the suspect to dictate the amount of force an officer uses,” explains Baird. “The suspect is always in control of his own safety.”

When a suspect complies, the officer can easily do his job. But when there’s resistance and the suspect becomes difficult, the officer is placed in a situation where he must make more aggressive choices.

“The officer can restrain the suspect or if absolutely necessary, hurt the suspect more to force compliance,” Baird relates. This includes throws that would land the suspect on the ground in a position for cuffing. “Remember, officers of the law do not have a choice. They are sworn to do their job and if they don’t, for lack of technique or fear, they will be held accountable as the law dictates.”

[grasshopper 2.0]

Well it really comes down to what you want to train or feel like training....or should be training as per a given curriculum. I'm not saying the opportunity for an armlock will never be there - it very well could be..especially if he's half way knocked out and really not "there' and his arms are exposed.

On a side note...why do boxers skip rope..it's not like they'll ever skip rope their opponent to death in a ring...

But don't you think that in most cases this will be always be the situation? Even drunk college lads who have only watched a few boxing matches will mostly keep there hands up and close and not leave them hanging out for someone to grab hold of, and if you do manage to get hold of one limb they normally have another hand free to hit you with and fight like help to get you off them.

So why bother to still spend time on training these things if they only work on substandard fighter and then only very rarely?

[Frost]

Well it really comes down to what you want to train or feel like training....or should be training as per a given curriculum. I'm not saying the opportunity for an armlock will never be there - it very well could be..especially if he's half way knocked out and really not "there' and his arms are exposed.

On a side note...why do boxers skip rope..it's not like they'll ever skip rope their opponent to death in a ring...

boxers skip rope as part of their S and C program, to help with footwork and conditioning. They continue using the rope because it has been proved over the years to be useful, no doubt if it was not useful they would stop doing it.