Timeframes: Striking vs. grappling

[Frost]

wel its the truth the idea was to break or damage a muscle china na is old they didnt have a referee to break it up or the option to tap out
why as soemone is trying to grab you the oppurtunity is there its harder to do with a punch yes but the main idea was for chin na to be used against a type of grabbing or grappling manuever that is attempted

The original judo challenges didn’t have refs either, lots of breaks there (and deaths as well) the difference is that we can still see those techniques being pulled off in competition, and if the ref is too slow or the opponent does not tap in time you still see breaks. So we know they are useful and work, where are all the chin na techniques in competitions so we can see how effective they are……..

We are back to the same old argument you and I keep having, if they are specifically designed and meant to be used in a grappling/grabbing situation why don’t we see them being pulled off anywhere where we see grappling? BJJ tournaments, no gi, adcc, When police and doorman get into grappling situations with suspects and are caught on CCTV? How come we don't see them anywhere on a regular basis?

[goju]

The original judo challenges didn’t have refs either, lots of breaks there (and deaths as well) the difference is that we can still see those techniques being pulled off in competition, and if the ref is too slow or the opponent does not tap in time you still see breaks. So we know they are useful and work, where are all the chin na techniques in competitions so we can see how effective they are……..

We are back to the same old argument you and I keep having, if they are specifically designed and meant to be used in a grappling/grabbing situation why don’t we see them being pulled off anywhere where we see grappling? BJJ tournaments, no gi, adcc, When police and doorman get into grappling situations with suspects and are caught on CCTV? How come we don't see them anywhere on a regular basis?

what do you mean why dont we see them millions of fights happen around the world and no one ever sees them thats a no brainer
and again they dont alow you to snap some ones arm if you deliberately try to do that your going to get disqualified even at the gym i trained at for mma they said if i compete i couldnt use the low kicks that are common in south chinese kung fu and karate because one no ones gonna wanna fight some one thats snapping their joint by kicking them low to the shins and more than likely youll get disqualified
the same applies to china if you deliabretly set out to damage some ones joint by snapping it youll be in trouble

[goju]

No it’s not the same you are talking about waiting to try and catch the limb when it is extended and they have missed you, a grappler is looking to move as soon as the opponent’s basic defensive weapons (his hands and especially his elbows) are away from his body.

If I can get passed the elbow I have control of the body, that’s what I am looking for as a grappler, not the arms being locks out or the punch being dead. If I can get under your arm as you strike or move (and passed your elbows) your ability to defend the clinch is very limited

"if you watch chin na done properly such as demonstrated by yang jwing ming it is done extremely fast in fact his locks are applieed as fast as a grappler would shoot in after he slips a punch"

Please show me chin na being done properly, anyone can look good in a demonstration when they know what is coming, you keep bringing yang jwing ming up as an authority can you please show me using his stuff in an actual fight. (Or any of his students for that matter.) I ask not be look a **** or be confrontational but because I have seen done and been involved in some very good looking chin na demonstrations at national tournaments and I know for a fact the people doing the demos can’t make the stuff work in an actual fight

yes and as you said the strike is away from the body and missed there fore its dead you just proved by point exactly

agin these are the people you know just because they cant pull it off doesnt mean it doesnt work. ive personal used china na sparring and i found it effective in the clinch the most so i have no doubt it works

[Frost]

what do you mean why dont we see them millions of fights happen around the world and no one ever sees them thats a no brainer
and again they dont alow you to snap some ones arm if you deliberately try to do that your going to get disqualified even at the gym i trained at for mma they said if i compete i couldnt use the low kicks that are common in south chinese kung fu and karate because one no ones gonna wanna fight some one thats snapping their joint by kicking them low to the shins and more than likely youll get disqualified
the same applies to china if you deliabretly set out to damage some ones joint by snapping it youll be in trouble

Oh no the “its too deadly to train or use in the ring argument has reared its head,” along with THE “its used all the time but just not in any fights that have been taped or any situations where it can be verified by film”

I can’t believe that in this day and age all these fights using chin na just happen to take place where no one has a video phone, no one takes along a video recorder, there is no cctv coverage and no crowds with internet access to let us know about it……

[Frost]

yes and as you said the strike is away from the body and missed there fore its dead you just proved by point exactly

agin these are the people you know just because they cant pull it off doesnt mean it doesnt work. ive personal used china na sparring and i found it effective in the clinch the most so i have no doubt it works

if you really think what I am saying in any way proves your point then I think its best to leave this argument alone now

[YungChun]

All these things work or not based on many similar concepts.. In combat you break and smash.. Not lock and control..

Like WCK it depends on how they resist and these things work better or only work with contact, feel and applied pressure.. A lock or break depends on how they resist..

For example they resist by opening a joint, you then help them open that joint from feeling their resistance and break it....

For example they resist by closing a line, you then help them close that line from feeling their resistance and smash them on the other line that just opened....

Choosing what move is an illusion, plucking stuff out of the air is an illusion...

Close range is about the clash, resistance, energy and position; and training to fit in with the opponent in the moment and using the above conditions to do damage...

[Frost]

No argument from me about close range being about clash resistance, energy and position, I just think you are better working hits and throws here (in and out of the clinch), rather than looking for standing locks/breaks which are next to impossible to get unless you out number your opponent or he is half dead.

Now on the ground locks/breaks work much better because of your opponents limited freedom of movement, and there is lots of evidence backing up both my points above (in fights we see on TV, on you tube etc) and virtually non to support the other argument.

All the above has been argued to death on this thread by myself and several other people so I’ll think ill stop here.

[goju]

Oh no the “its too deadly to train or use in the ring argument has reared its head,” along with THE “its used all the time but just not in any fights that have been taped or any situations where it can be verified by film”

I can’t believe that in this day and age all these fights using chin na just happen to take place where no one has a video phone, no one takes along a video recorder, there is no cctv coverage and no crowds with internet access to let us know about it……

how do you know they arent? recorded theres millions of video on youtube just because you havent seen them doesnt mean they dont exist
whos using the to deadly crap you cant break some ones arm in mma or any modern day competition end of story youll get disqualified

[goju]

if you really think what I am saying in any way proves your point then I think its best to leave this argument alone now

you said your self when the arm is extended thats when the grappler shoots thats the same way china is applied onece its missed and extended for a breif period of time it can be snapped

[monji112000]

you said your self when the arm is extended thats when the grappler shoots thats the same way china is applied onece its missed and extended for a brief period of time it can be snapped

what your not considering are the many variables that are created when you are standing, that are lessened when you are not. Anything is possible, but what is probable? you have to look at all the variables..
the biggest standing submission used in grappling and MMA is the guillotine.
why? because it eliminates allot of variables once applied. Even then with sweat, getting slammed, and lack of a good grip.. can turn it into nothing.
I like Chin na, and I like wrist locks.. but I prefer them on the ground. I have seen some interseting Chin na takedowns.. mostly they seemed like variations of Judo. Tai toshi, osotogari, and several sacrifice throws.

until you try these things in a competition, its hard to see things clearly..
just watch this video.. look at how sweaty those guys are .. how they attempt to get control of hands, neck ect.. how in the end the only thing he can get is the guys neck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkpn-ljv-wQ

[Lucas]

you guys ever watch any shuai jiao competitions or matches? plenty of chinese grappling there. lots of vids. look it up.

[monji112000]

you guys ever watch any shuai jiao competitions or matches? plenty of chinese grappling there. lots of vids. look it up.

I have been trying to see shuai jao competitions.. I have found only a few online. I'm pretty sure no submissions are aloud.. so ..

[sanjuro_ronin]

No other system advocates standing grappling more than aikido (arguably) and Aikido has competitions:
This one is a match between a "knife" attacker and an unarmed defender.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXmrx0vz16E

In competitive aikido most points and matches are won by a throw or a pin, even though joint locks are allowed.
As you can see, even to highly trained aikidokas have a "hard time" applying standing joint locks, even when strikes are NOT allowed.

Another, this is unarmed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQEOXJ4tPgc

[Yoshiyahu]

In actually fight. How do you use grappling to stop from getting knocked out?

How does one who only practies lets say Aikido,Judo and BJJ defeat a common thug. Lets say this thug is throwing his fist at your face as fast as he can. What do you do if you have no striking experience.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In actually fight. How do you use grappling to stop from getting knocked out?

How does one who only practies lets say Aikido,Judo and BJJ defeat a common thug. Lets say this thug is throwing his fist at your face as fast as he can. What do you do if you have no striking experience.

Are you actually asking a question or trying to make an (illl-informed) statement