Timeframes: Striking vs. grappling

[Wayfaring]

If you "live" in a phone booth like WC fighters are trained to do, clinch grappling, at the very least, is a must to know.
Lets be honest here, if you like to be on the inside where an opponent can grab you with BOTH hands, the chances of grappling are close to 100% and the chances of going to the ground almost as much.

yes, absolutely.

[Edmund]

My main gripe is the speed at which a striking exchange takes place coupled to the mobility that a "standing" person has.

Which brings me to my point - does the timeframe of an exchange get longer (i.e. you get more time to react/act) as you move to clinch, grappling, ground, etc?

Yes with an important proviso: You have to know what to do in those positions. Skilled or experienced people understand the principles of position and posture so keep themselves where they have more time to react and act.

Actually the same applies to a striking exchange even though it may seem faster and more mobile. The knowledgeable person doesn't expose themselves to be struck easily. Then they have the time to react and act.

It's an important idea in any form of fighting and there are many ways to skin the cat. Whatever the style, it's the difference between just swinging at each other and actually using your brains.

[Yoshiyahu]

In street fighting. Lets say we are somewhere alone. No friends to back this guy up. An he is extremly fast with his punches or kicks. I may use ground fighting to trap him. What I mean is if I am lot stronger phyiscally I would try get him the ground so I could break his arm or leg (Not submit him). If I gain the dominant posistion I will attempt to trap or hold him down by crossing on of his hands over his throat while I punch him with my free hand.

But a fight is unpredictable Just because someone trains ground tactics doesn't always mean they will work the way they do in class. Sparring is totally different than sparring. An when sparring or Sprawling someone from the same style doesn't always prepare you for the unexpected on the street!

A unskilled street fighter may be alot stronger or too big to take to ground. So you may want to stay on your feet your self.

Chi Sao is not a fighting stratagy. Never was. It is a simple drill where 2 people can work together in training their pary and strike techniques through routine redundance. It can be helpful training when you are close in and sort of grappling. Most people have to have room to swing at you, but a WC fighter can hit you while rubbing bellies with you. If he can control your arms while striking you so much the better for him. Today people think MMA ring when they talk fighting. Going to ground is an attempt to use wrestling or jujitsu to submit a person. Submission is only in sport fighting. You would submit someone in a parking lot fight and once on his feet he would start fighting all over again. Then again maybe someone else will get involved and kick at your head while you roll with his friend. The ground is the very last place you want to be in a serious street fight. More than titles and bragging rights are involved there. I understand that someone might attempt to take you down, and it is so that he can get help from friends while you are down there probably. In this case you need to make every attempt to prevent that happening. At all costs. If he is alone he would probably be as loath to being taken down as you would be.
There is a world of difference between a fight in a back parking lot and a fight in a ring under controlled conditions, where a referee can pull him off you when he chokes you blue.

[Lee Chiang Po]

This is not written in stone, but in most cases if someone is looking to fight it is because he has the notion that he can whip you. Either he is larger than you or he feels he has some fighting skill that you don't have. Seldom does one simply approach and start some crap with you. They usually eye you and size you up and sometimes even say little things to see what kind of response they get out of you. They don't usually want to start something with someone that they think might give them a good fight. They look for victim types. Trapping hands and arms would classify as grappling in my opinion, and it would give you some advantage to train these moves and techniques. Nothing works all the time, but things you practice tend to work more often. It can only give you some advantage if it does work.
Now, this might be contrary to what is popularly believed, but you do not have to go to the ground to fight a grappling fight. When trapping a hand or arm you can apply your basic wrist and arm locks and bars to take a man down while standing flat on both feet. In fact, it seems to be a great deal easier to do while standing.
Ring fighting consists of pounding and kicking, then grabbing a leg and taking a man down and straddle him. Only certain large joints can be attacked. Rules to fight by you know. In a street fight you have well over a hundred wrist locks and arm bar techniques to work with. All these fighting techniques are designed that you can use them against a larger and stronger person.

[grasshopper 2.0]

it's a no-brainer, if i/you train WCK, you want to do the darnest to stay on your feet. The last thing you want to think about is to go to the ground/grapple. No matter your opponent's size (big, skinny, tall, short, fast, slow) - your bread and butter (given that you're following this thread) is your WCK...so make sure that's at 100%.

if it goes to the ground or even grappling....we're pretty much screwed. and let's hope our opponent isn't good at it either.

others may elect to learn ground fighting, wrestling etc. that's fine too. All a matter of how you want to spread your chips...

[Frost]

This is not written in stone, but in most cases if someone is looking to fight it is because he has the notion that he can whip you. Either he is larger than you or he feels he has some fighting skill that you don't have. Seldom does one simply approach and start some crap with you. They usually eye you and size you up and sometimes even say little things to see what kind of response they get out of you. They don't usually want to start something with someone that they think might give them a good fight. They look for victim types. Trapping hands and arms would classify as grappling in my opinion, and it would give you some advantage to train these moves and techniques. Nothing works all the time, but things you practice tend to work more often. It can only give you some advantage if it does work.
Now, this might be contrary to what is popularly believed, but you do not have to go to the ground to fight a grappling fight. When trapping a hand or arm you can apply your basic wrist and arm locks and bars to take a man down while standing flat on both feet. In fact, it seems to be a great deal easier to do while standing.
Ring fighting consists of pounding and kicking, then grabbing a leg and taking a man down and straddle him. Only certain large joints can be attacked. Rules to fight by you know. In a street fight you have well over a hundred wrist locks and arm bar techniques to work with. All these fighting techniques are designed that you can use them against a larger and stronger person.

Today people think MMA ring when they talk fighting. Going to ground is an attempt to use wrestling or jujitsu to submit a person. .

Grappling does not mean ground fighting, and ground fighting does not mean looking for the tap. Grappling skills are what allow you to keep the fight standing and allow you to punish an opponent in close range without having to go to the ground. Neck clinch to snap down to knees to the head or guiltone; an underhook with head control allows you to knee the opponent and if needed throw him on his head. Ground fighting can mean going to knee on stomach and dropping blows until your opponent is unconscious, and if i do get an arm i am not looking for a tap, i am looking for a break

To say ring fighting only consists of pounding and kicking then grabbing a leg and taking a guy down to straddle him is unbelievably silly, you surely can’t actually believe this?

Its not the rules that keep people from using wirst locks and standing arm locks, they are legal in alot of MMA organisation, you don’t see them because they don’t work very well. Doing a standing arm bar on a compliant partner is one thing, doing it on someone trying to take your head off and who is moving around is another thing altogether. Don’t you think that if a move was that easy, and worked against larger and stronger opponents that everyone would be doing them? It would beat the hell out of trying to set up a double leg or fighting to get a body lock

[goju]

LOL... standing joint locks are next to impossible to get on a halfway athletic or skilled opponents. The reason people don't do standing joint locks in MMA is because they don't work 99.9% of the time.

no because they dont train them properly
and for you being a bjj black belt you dont know your own history the gracie jujitsu self defense techniques for when some one grabs your shoulder was actually used in a mma match and in torn the guys arm up so bad he cant fight anymore and its a standing joint lock technique so gos to show what you know

[Yoshiyahu]

Ahh prehaps the wrestlers can learn something from WC Purist after all. There seems to be something that many are not awarre of here?

This is get interested.

The Premise: Standing Joint locks can be applied to a larger opponent easily.

The Fallacy: Standing Joint Locks are nearly to imposisble to apply on a struggling opponent.

Interesting I like to hear you guys hash this one out?

[Merryprankster]

actually yoshiyahu, it's not a very interesting discussion at all.

Standing jointlocks are low percentage moves because there are too many degrees of freedom of movement. It's pretty much that simple.

CAN it work? Yup. Knifefighter, and others, including me, are not denying that. It might even be useful to have one or two well-practiced, in the "bag o tricks." Everybody has a couple of things that they just pull out every now and again, so why not.

But the reason you don't routinely see them - even in events where they are legal, like in BJJ tournaments or MMA fights - is precisely because they are "bag o tricks" type moves, not "Solid staple, bread and butter, "A" game type things."

People are welcome to disagree and that's fine. What they choose to do with their time really doesn't matter much to me.

[chusauli]

Uyeshiba, the founder of Aikido said, "The secret of Aikido lies in Atemi waza (Striking to vital points)".

The basic premise of standing joint locks is striking an opponent senseles first, then doing the armlock. To just do it without apply strikes is useless.

Anyone not believing Aikido is effective should look at Yoshinkan or its predecessor, Daito Ryu Jujutsu.

[goju]

Uyeshiba, the founder of Aikido said, "The secret of Aikido lies in Atemi waza (Striking to vital points)".

The basic premise of standing joint locks is striking an opponent senseles first, then doing the armlock. To just do it without apply strikes is useless.

Anyone not believing Aikido is effective should look at Yoshinkan or its predecessor, Daito Ryu Jujutsu.

he will say thenb why dont you see it in mma
aikidos bread and butter is small joint manipulation which is banned in many mma competions

[monji112000]

he will say thenb why dont you see it in mma
aikidos bread and butter is small joint manipulation which is banned in many mma competions

Akido like wing chun has allot of people who "know" but can't do. Akido has little to no randori. Its not a sport, so you have people becoming black belts and not even getting someone to tap in a LIVE situation. Akido with randori looks like Judo..

This argument is the same one that was discussed about the GRover or whatever its called. If you take the time to try something 1,000 times on a 1,000 people in a live situation you would figure that out.

when you are standing you have little control of the opponent. Some submissions in a set environment may work.. a little more than others. I assume your talking about about Aoki's standing arm bar? He was even surprised it worked.. because its such a low percentage technique. If you really on it as your only plan.. your in trouble.. but if you throw it out there and then do something more realistic.. thats not that bad of a idea. My BJJ teacher does wrist locks, but only as a set-up for more realistic techniques.

[goju]

the best time to use a standing joint lock is when a grab is attempted by your opponent say for example if some tries to clinch you or take you down
plus ive always though the standing techniques in bjj were crap to be honest with you im really flexible and those standingtechniques was taught in bjj didnt even work on me and they didnt work on the other people who were flexible either more than likely thats why dale poo poos on standing joint locks
whereas the chin na in chinese and okinawan arts are more scientific focusing on pressure points and often using a brutal torque of the joint that likely esults in tonr muscle or snapped bone

[goju]

the way i was taught standing joint locks is that you strike them to stun them then apply it or strike them with the lock in order to prevent an attempt at escaping
same thing with are grappling in karate with ar armbar or our crucifix for example we use a strike before the submission is apllied to damage your opponent and prevent him for putting up resistance

[Hendrik]

Is there another reason why people move to clinch or the ground, other than maybe the opponent is not so well trained in it (if at all)?

IMHO,
The biggest reason is the type of power generation platform is not capable to produce power to support the action at the contact.

thus, it defauts into pure mascular power and those who have more muscular strength and use to the condition via practice win.


I am actually feel sad to see WCK no longer has the power platform to do the job.