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Thread: Timeframes: Striking vs. grappling

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I think you need to re-read my post.
    why?dim mak is taught as well as chin na as part of the okinawna karate curriculum ive yet to see a okinawan master whos ignored either of those aspects in training

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    why?dim mak is taught as well as chin na as part of the okinawna karate curriculum ive yet to see a okinawan master whos ignored either of those aspects in training
    It wasn't there before, what happend all of a sudden? revelation?
    Kyusho-jutsu is a very rudimentary form of Dim Mak, most TCMA think of what the JMA and OMA do in regards to Dim Mak and Chin na as an infantile joke.

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    no its not ive seen the same china locks in karate as i do in cma

    and most chinese practioners who say karate is a joke say that because of their countries history with japan they dont realize the okinawans are their own distinct ethnic group

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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    no its not ive seen the same china locks in karate as i do in cma

    and most chinese practioners who say karate is a joke say that because of their countries history with japan they dont realize the okinawans are their own distinct ethnic group
    If that is your chosen view, fine.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    karate and boxing are my two main arts however it seems like you dont realize china na and dim mak are in karate

    so whats your point every technique can be difficult to apply against a resisting opponent particularly when you dont train it thats bloody obvious

    most police officers dont know how to properly restrain some one and again you think the avergae cop practices his holds on a daily basis lol come on

    No what’s bloody obvious is that some techniques are just more difficult if not impossible to pull off than others, and if they are that difficult why bother learning them?

    Don’t you think if standing locks worked at all you would see them all the time in grappling matches as they beat the hell out of having to pull off a takedown, pass the guard and secure dominant position before even attempting a submission?

    So according to you nearly all the police out there are improperly trained and even if they were properly trained by an expert such as yourself they would still need to practise these holds on a daily basis in order to have a prayer of pulling them off?

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    The issue of grappling in Karate is one that I have dealt with before.
    Its typically been propegated more in N.America than in Asia, in Okinawa and Japan you don't go to karate to learn/train grappling,period.
    Every system has some rudimentary grappling and dim mak, along the lines that Judo and BJJ have striking.
    Those techniques are far inferior to what the system is specialized in, in the case of Karate, striking.
    Standing grappling and Dim Mak came about from the Bunkai and the Himitsu ( Hidden hands) of the various Kata, when it became clear that many of moves just didn't work as strikes and it was clear that many had ani-grappling ( standing) applications.
    The joint locking and vital point striking taught in typical karate is rudimentary and basic at best, though many instructors have greatly expanded their knowledge of these things to offer better quality for their students, like Morio Higaonna and Taira Sensei have, to name just two.
    It doesn't change the fact that Karate is NOT a joint locking system and never was and that Dim Mak, outside the typical vital point striking, is not a primary focus of the majority of Karate systems.

  7. #67
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    wow who deleted my posts?

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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    wow who deleted my posts?
    I did, and Dales too. Fun is fun but I was afraid Dale would have a coronary.

    Seriously, we already hijacked one thread figured this one was best left alone.
    Peace,

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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    No what’s bloody obvious is that some techniques are just more difficult if not impossible to pull off than others, and if they are that difficult why bother learning them?

    Don’t you think if standing locks worked at all you would see them all the time in grappling matches as they beat the hell out of having to pull off a takedown, pass the guard and secure dominant position before even attempting a submission?

    most people dont think out side of the box they automatically regurgitate what their instructor tells em with out thinking themselves or they excuse the fact that they are not skilled enough to pull off a certain technique on the the fact that it dosnt work
    and correct me if im wrong most grappling styles dont have standing locks in them so its kind of hard to do something you werent taught



    "So according to you nearly all the police out there are improperly trained"

    yup thats my poiny exactly look at the tv show cops for example most of the times a officer is trying to detain a fleeing suspect he just clings on him to dear life until they both fall down . however there have been a few small instances where the officer used a standing lock or as i once saw a aikido throw


    " they would still need to practise these holds on a daily basis in order to have a prayer of pulling them off?"

    well of course you need to practice daily to pull of any technique thats a big duh lol
    sheeesh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I did, and Dales too. Fun is fun but I was afraid Dale would have a coronary.

    Seriously, we already hijacked one thread figured this one was best left alone.
    i dont think this was going into an argument like dales cardiac episode though at least so far

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  11. #71
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    "most people dont think out side of the box they automatically regurgitate what their instructor tells em with out thinking themselves or they excuse the fact that they are not skilled enough to pull off a certain technique on the the fact that it dosnt work
    and correct me if im wrong most grappling styles dont have standing locks in them so its kind of hard to do something you werent taught"

    most people I know who compete in submission wrestling or MMA are constantly looking for something outside the box that is easy to pull and doesn't require much work, and they normally come from a traditional background and have practised standing locks before, or will have tried them at some point in their class, usually early on in training when you are eager to come up with cool new stuff that works.

    Its not that they don't think for themselves or are not skilled, its that this stuff doesn't work, but feel free to prove me wrong and show me instances of it working.... not just the odd one or two but several so we can see they are high percentage moves.

    "yup thats my poiny exactly look at the tv show cops for example most of the times a officer is trying to detain a fleeing suspect he just clings on him to dear life until they both fall down . however there have been a few small instances where the officer used a standing lock or as i once saw a aikido throw"

    So you think you could do much better?... Right… it could be as you say that all these police we see are poorly trained and useless and just hold on for dear life… or it could be that holding an opponent close and taking him to the ground to limit his movement (i.e grappling) is what actually works most the time in real life…...

    "well of course you need to practice daily to pull of any technique thats a big duh lol"

    Tell that to all the guys out there competing who have full time jobs and can only hit the gym at most 3 or 4 times a week, they seem to do ok

  12. #72
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    well this is the end to the standing joint locking technique debate
    you remember the chinese general yue fei correct? remember that he taught his troops the joint locking techniques that re now present in eagle claw?
    well do explain to me why a general would teach his army ineffective techniques that dont work in alife and death battle?
    this will be fun
    and please lets not have this turn into a nother dale cornary heart attack thread just because you dont like my opinion on a subject dosnt mean you have to get your panties in abunch over it

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  13. #73
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    yes actually i think going close to someone and pretty much hugging onto them until you drag himdown with you is a ineffective means of a takedown compared to a standing joint lock or say a judo trip or throw which is more efficient and uses less effort because you arent meeting force with force as you would do brutishly tugging them to the ground
    the bjj coach i had even worked as a cop and a corrections officer and noted most police cant properly defend themselves and rely too much on their weapons

    as far as your last comment indeed but those who train everyday dilligently will far surpass those who only train three or four times a week
    and please dont respond to this in a rediculous manner im getting quite bored with the key board bil jee that is rampant on the wing chun forum

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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    well this is the end to the standing joint locking technique debate
    you remember the chinese general yue fei correct? remember that he taught his troops the joint locking techniques that re now present in eagle claw?
    well do explain to me why a general would teach his army ineffective techniques that dont work in alife and death battle?
    this will be fun
    and please lets not have this turn into a nother dale cornary heart attack thread just because you dont like my opinion on a subject dosnt mean you have to get your panties in abunch over it
    So I ask for evidence of standing locks working and you go back 800 years or so to talk about some Chinese general? Were you there, did you see how effective these techniques were on the battle field… don’t you think that his number one priority in war time would have been training his troops in armed combat? And if the techniques he trained were so good, where are all the eagle claw guys now dominating the MMA and grappling competitions with there standing locks…. Any examples…. Anywhere….

    While you are at it how about some examples, preferably from this century with actual evidence… I know that might be asking a little too much but one can always hope

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    yes actually i think going close to someone and pretty much hugging onto them until you drag himdown with you is a ineffective means of a takedown compared to a standing joint lock or say a judo trip or throw which is more efficient and uses less effort because you arent meeting force with force as you would do brutishly tugging them to the ground
    the bjj coach i had even worked as a cop and a corrections officer and noted most police cant properly defend themselves and rely too much on their weapons

    as far as your last comment indeed but those who train everyday dilligently will far surpass those who only train three or four times a week
    and please dont respond to this in a rediculous manner im getting quite bored with the key board bil jee that is rampant on the wing chun forum
    Why am I not surprised that you have also trained in BJJ, you see to be a expert on so many arts

    Have you trained judo at all, do you know how hard you have to work to pull of those throws? Not to mention the legal ramifications of planting someone face first into the ground at a great velocity? And using trips on someone and following them to the ground ends up looking a lot like your brutish drags to the floor.

    No those who train diligently every day will only surpass those who train three or four times a week if they are training useful high percentage moves, I would put money on a BJJ purple belt who only trains three times a week destroying a traditional guy practising standing locks everyday. Its not the time invested in training that counts as much as the efficiency and effectiveness of the training you are doing, and for all there faults this is something we can thank the Gracie’s for reminding us of all those years ago

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