Wing Chun in US Military

[JPinAZ]

But if someone does critique amateur boxing based on their inability to make it work you can shut them up with hundreds of examples of people making it work. Why can't people shut Dale up simply by showing him it is a valid fighting method? If only a few schools can be seen making the system work then isn't his criticism of the system and its training methods valid?

He says that few people can actually make WCK work, how does he know? Has he trained with or watched every WCK pracitioner spar or train? of course not! His opinion is only based on his own inabilities to make WCK work, which is totally fair. I have no issues with that.

I agree though, maybe he can't find good examples with what's on the internet. And I might agree with him, maybe there isn't a whole lot of good examples to be found there. But, that's not all wck. And is it really on us to prove to him anyway? Or anyone? Who is he anyway? Just some guy that couldn't make his own WCK work and went and trained some other stuff. And I give him props for going out and fighting like he has. But not everyone here shares his opinion that WCK suck. Since he's not a WCK guy, why is he even here? Is he trying to save us all? haha
Or maybe he's just a troll..

Sounds like someone else here...

[JPinAZ]

I never said no one can make it work. A few people obviously are. My claim is that the majority of people who think they can make it work for real are as deluded as the students of the chi master.

Ok, you've made your claim (for the bazillionth time), now what?

You care enough to make posts about it. Why just not do a quick clip of you fighting full contact against other resisting opponents?

My mind's not "made up". I was skeptical about Alan and his guys, but I'm pretty sure they are making things work, despite what I originally thought.

Haha, what's a clip going to prove to you? Why should I have to prove anything to you anyway? Who are you? I put in my work, I prove things out to myself, I don't need an ego boost by trying to show someone else how great I think I am.

But, I respect the fact that you're mind isn't totally made up. Maybe you stay on these WCK threads because you are holding onto a bit of hope that you might find a way to make WCK work for you.

[Knifefighter]

I put in my work, I prove things out to myself,

So do the chi blast guys.

[Lucas]

Who is the wing chun guy here?

i dont have sound at work and was just curious what you guys think of this match. also who is the wing chun fighter here, and what wing chun technique does he utilize in this match?

[Lucas]

actually i answered my own question by watching a second video with the same fighter.

18 second KO?

[Yoshiyahu]

So do the chi blast guys.

Please video tape your chi blast...I love to critque your fantasy chi.

[Liddel]

Nah, you really don't, LOL !
Killing is not like the movies that's why when people start mentioning that they'd do this and that, I kind of just roll my eyes and say "whatever".
Killing is messy and you kave to l ive with it, forever and answer for it.
But I digress, the point being that if you can't do the simplest of things ( The core) well, then forget that "too deadly"crap.

Yeah no i dont wish to hear about killing, i didnt realise that was where you were going with that... i though you might have bad injury stories like my stomping example - things that take the training to the extreme etc. Hell ive had times at other VT school where a student glanced a blow on my face during Gor Sau and stoped to say sorry ... i said no probs that what im here for....LOL. Some people just lack the aggression.

Ive never been an advocate of Dim Mak or preasure points use in fighting even though the "theory " has merit and totally agree with your core skills point.

Dale can put foward his experience with the Seals delta etc and im not discounting that nor can i argue with his experience but those people i know who do CQB were martial artists long before thier training in it which is exactly why they were drawn to it.

I understand alot of them dont go deep into H2H in the military training, but to assume that the personality types of these individuals means throughout the world that for the most part they arent as good as Civilian H2H exponents is narrow minded IMO. The type that gets into it here is generally someone already seasoned in one or several MA's because the intensity of this training means if they were fighting virgins they would be so horrified they wouldnt come back on day two.

And Dale still hasnt confirmed if was full out fighting - the likes of combat milling - or just rolling with these guys which would put his opinion of thier fighting ability into sharper focus and proper context.

DREW

[Drake]

I hear US army MP's carry tazers and other non-lethal weapons to bypass any scuffles that may occur.

We had a guy a few weekends ago... was drunk. MP tazered him... he fell... he rose to one knee... MP felt threatened.... tazered him again.

[Drake]

Exactly.

The fact is, since 99.9% of what military personnel do is not CQC related, 99.9% of their training time will be spent doing other types of training.

Military personnel spend more time running than they do doing CQC training, and in no way, shape or form can they compete with competitive civilian runners who spend much more time doing running training. If they aren't as good in something they spend more of their time doing, they're not, somehow, going to be better in something they spend even less time doing.

To think that a military training makes someone an awesome CQC fighter just shows how out of touch with reality the theoretical, pretend, non-fighters are.

Actually, the Army Combatives program, which Sanjuro explained pretty much perfectly, is being taught across the board, because we ARE getting involved in a LOT of CQC while room clearing and detainee ops.

Secondly, the Army has a good number of elite runners, and you'll see them in top form at the Army 10-miler. We've also got a fair share of ultra-marathoners, along with the guys who can blitz out their 2-mile run times.

If you think Army fighters are not effective, then I encourage you to practice with a Level 4 Combatives soldier. I've even seen, firsthand, Level 2 guys move so quickly and powerfully that the opponent couldn't tap out before requiring a trip to the hospital due to blood being cut off to the brain.

Do you have any prior service at all, or are you just making this up?

[Knifefighter]

If you think Army fighters are not effective, then I encourage you to practice with a Level 4 Combatives soldier.

Like I said, I trained with most of them at the Gracie Academy. Since I was one of the more advanced guys there, I was one of the people who would spar against them.

I've even seen, firsthand, Level 2 guys move so quickly and powerfully that the opponent couldn't tap out before requiring a trip to the hospital due to blood being cut off to the brain.

LOL @ having to go to the hospital from a quick blood choke... I've been doing this long enough to know the b.s.er's when I see them and his statement is a classic example of complete b.s. The fact is, a choke can be held for a period of time after someone loses consciousness without any adverse affects... happens all the time in BJJ and you don't see people being whisked off to the hospital.

Do you have any prior service at all, or are you just making this up?

I'm currently providing some supplemental training a group of marines who are going to be deployed to Afghanistan. I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what combat-ready military personnel are capable of when it comes to CQC.

The fact is, training military troops to elite levels in unarmed fighting would be a huge inefficiency of both time and money. There just isn't time for this. They have other jobs to do... not to mention the fact that 99.999% of their combat will be done with weapons.

[Lucas]

The fact is, training military troops to elite levels in unarmed fighting would be a huge inefficiency of both time and money. There just isn't time for this. They have other jobs to do... .

isnt this also why civs are used for a portion of unarmed training? it seems that the highest level of unarmed skills would come from civilians who have the time to train to that level of expertise.

[Wayfaring]

If you think Army fighters are not effective, then I encourage you to practice with a Level 4 Combatives soldier. I've even seen, firsthand, Level 2 guys move so quickly and powerfully that the opponent couldn't tap out before requiring a trip to the hospital due to blood being cut off to the brain.

Actually, most of the Combatives instructors I've met that have been any good at all usually are BJJ blue or purple belts who have had a lot more time outside of combatives training to obtain some mat skills. Every single one of them invites BJJ schools to come in and roll with their soldiers to give them exposure to people with more mat time. One local BJJ black belt just won a contract to teach Combatives to the Army.

There are a handful of soldiers that compete in the Combatives tournaments who the top among them military wide are good amateur level MMA fighters.

But your run of the mill Level 4 Combatives soldier that I have seen typically gets tapped out by 1 year BJJ white belts, who move so quickly and powerfully that they don't trip over themselves quite as often. I've only seen 2 of the most stubborn or stupid that is too prideful to tap and gets choked unconscious. They didn't go to the hospital, but got woken up and reamed out by their Combatives instructor.

[Knifefighter]

I've only seen 2 of the most stubborn or stupid that is too prideful to tap and gets choked unconscious. They didn't go to the hospital, but got woken up and reamed out by their Combatives instructor.

The fact that he thought a quick choke out would send someone to the hospital shows that he is making things up. Anyone who has actually done submissions with chokes knows that this is completely unbased.

[Frost]

The fact that he thought a quick choke out would send someone to the hospital shows that he is making things up. Anyone who has actually done submissions with chokes knows that this is completely unbased.

True everyone who has been grappling a while and has competed has experienced (or seen) someone being put to sleep with a choke when they did not tap in time, usually the person applying the choke or the ref realises something is wrong, they put the guy into recover and when he comes round remind him that tapping is a good idea. Now trips to the hospital are much more common if they don’t tap to an arm or leg lock in time

I have trained with a few army guys over the years and most of them only ever had rudimental training in martial arts. Even the more elite guys (Para’s, royal marines) only got any form of extended unarmed training when about to be deployed to northern Ireland, and then only in some basic compliance locks for use on protesters etc, back then it simply wasn’t a big part of their role. Milling was used but for mental/physical toughness than anything else. This was a while back so things might have changed but I suspect not a great deal.

[Drake]

Like I said, I trained with most of them at the Gracie Academy. Since I was one of the more advanced guys there, I was one of the people who would spar against them.


LOL @ having to go to the hospital from a quick blood choke... I've been doing this long enough to know the b.s.er's when I see them and his statement is a classic example of complete b.s. The fact is, a choke can be held for a period of time after someone loses consciousness without any adverse affects... happens all the time in BJJ and you don't see people being whisked off to the hospital.


I'm currently providing some supplemental training a group of marines who are going to be deployed to Afghanistan. I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what combat-ready military personnel are capable of when it comes to CQC.

The fact is, training military troops to elite levels in unarmed fighting would be a huge inefficiency of both time and money. There just isn't time for this. They have other jobs to do... not to mention the fact that 99.999% of their combat will be done with weapons.

Uh yeah... seeing as I was there watching the bout when it happened, I find your rebuttal to be pointless. I don't know who taught you how to choke, but clearly you've been taught incorrectly. I've been shown the proper way to choke, and it had me down in about 4 seconds... or less. It would appear you haven't been.