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Thread: Wing Chun in US Military

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    The fact that he thought a quick choke out would send someone to the hospital shows that he is making things up. Anyone who has actually done submissions with chokes knows that this is completely unbased.
    Again. I was there and saw it happen. You can say whatever you like, and it won't change the fact that myself and about 50 other people standing there witnessed it.

    YOU are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about, and it is clear that YOU are the one who doesn't understand chokes. I'm done with this discussion. None of you are even IN the US Army, so I don't get how you'd be a SME on Army Combatives. Guesswork and anecdotes, perhaps.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
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  2. #92
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    FYI Drake, Knifefighter is a 2nd degree BB in BJJ, he knows about chokes.

    I am not saying that you didn't see what you saw, because you obviously did, I am saying that sometimes we don't see what we think we see.
    EX:
    Not too long ago I was at a bar-b-que and some guys that are into MMA are talking about **** and chokes come up and one guy says he can choke anyone out and tries and all he is doing is cranking people and squeezing their necks.
    One of the guys there, my wifes cousin says I do MA and the guy choking people asks which? I mention some of my qualifications and then he tries to choke me, which he can't because he doesn't know how to, he is just squeezing hard, nothing more, so I do it to him and I casually show how he is doing it wrong, squeezing the neck into the chest instead of bringing the elbows together.
    I do this lightly and he says that way doens't work because he is not choked out, I said that if he was OK with it, I would choke him out, he says I can try but his neck is to big.
    Short of it, he is out and learns a valuable lesson.
    The point is someone says "Holy crap, you choked him out in seconds !!"
    I didn't it, how do I know?
    I counted to 8 and he was probably gone in less but out cold in 8.
    I then woke him up and he didn't even have a mark on his neck.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    FYI Drake, Knifefighter is a 2nd degree BB in BJJ, he knows about chokes.

    I am not saying that you didn't see what you saw, because you obviously did, I am saying that sometimes we don't see what we think we see.
    EX:
    Not too long ago I was at a bar-b-que and some guys that are into MMA are talking about **** and chokes come up and one guy says he can choke anyone out and tries and all he is doing is cranking people and squeezing their necks.
    One of the guys there, my wifes cousin says I do MA and the guy choking people asks which? I mention some of my qualifications and then he tries to choke me, which he can't because he doesn't know how to, he is just squeezing hard, nothing more, so I do it to him and I casually show how he is doing it wrong, squeezing the neck into the chest instead of bringing the elbows together.
    I do this lightly and he says that way doens't work because he is not choked out, I said that if he was OK with it, I would choke him out, he says I can try but his neck is to big.
    Short of it, he is out and learns a valuable lesson.
    The point is someone says "Holy crap, you choked him out in seconds !!"
    I didn't it, how do I know?
    I counted to 8 and he was probably gone in less but out cold in 8.
    I then woke him up and he didn't even have a mark on his neck.
    I'm saying I saw a cadre member who failed to properly monitor the bout, a very VERY fast friend of mine (he had prior MA experience, I think it was a Japanese style), and a guy who was dark purple in a matter of moments. The guy couldn't tap out, because from I understood, he couldn't (this I can't verify) due to one reason or another. The guy DID go to the hospital, but he was back with us the next day.

    That is the only incident like that I saw happen during roughly 40 weeks of training in this stuff (it was a few times a week during morning PT). Everything else was arm bar/lock injuries, like someone mentioned before. The incident happened at OCS over at Ft. Benning. Ft. Sill was relatively injury free, but we had several injuries at Ft. Huachuca, due to the cadre upping the intensity.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  4. #94
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    I am not saying it didn't happen, I am saying that he probably held the choke longer than he should have and it may have took them longer than they liked to revive the guy, so they sent him to the hospital, I can see that happening.
    Some people, a small percentage, are hyper-sensitive to chokes, they have an "over active" carotid sinus and that could have been the situation here, I don't know.
    Typically chokes (blood chokes) are very safe.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I am not saying it didn't happen, I am saying that he probably held the choke longer than he should have and it may have took them longer than they liked to revive the guy, so they sent him to the hospital, I can see that happening.
    Some people, a small percentage, are hyper-sensitive to chokes, they have an "over active" carotid sinus and that could have been the situation here, I don't know.
    Typically chokes (blood chokes) are very safe.
    I do know the guy who was choked out was a douchebag.

    It's just a rumor, but some guys from his platoon suggested that he probably didn't want to lose, so he refused to tap.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Typically chokes (blood chokes) are very safe.
    Hello,

    FWIW, I agree, even Dale and I are pretty much in agreement as to the safety of chokes

    When applied to cut off the blood supply to the brain a person can be put out fairly quickly. A person can survive for several minutes without blood/oxygen to the brain without suffering permenant damage, some of this forum may have more experience with loss of oxygen to the brain than others .

    There have been cases where a person was deprived of oxygen for up to eight minutes without suffering harm. I believe there are even cases where a person was underwater for much longer, but other circumstances come into play such as water temp etc.

    Point is, a well applied choke can take someone out without doing serious damage. Usually the problems come about when the choke is applies too long or improperly.

    Oh, fwiw I was in the Army although so long ago that I am doubtless out of touch with current training methods.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hello,

    FWIW, I agree, even Dale and I are pretty much in agreement as to the safety of chokes

    When applied to cut off the blood supply to the brain a person can be put out fairly quickly. A person can survive for several minutes without blood/oxygen to the brain without suffering permenant damage, some of this forum may have more experience with loss of oxygen to the brain than others .

    There have been cases where a person was deprived of oxygen for up to eight minutes without suffering harm. I believe there are even cases where a person was underwater for much longer, but other circumstances come into play such as water temp etc.

    Point is, a well applied choke can take someone out without doing serious damage. Usually the problems come about when the choke is applies too long or improperly.

    Oh, fwiw I was in the Army although so long ago that I am doubtless out of touch with current training methods.

    Yes, they made a lot of changes. I came in back in 1999, and what we were taught isn't even remotely the same as what is being taught now. The whole punch /kick /hip toss routine is completely gone now. I basically had to relearn everything.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    YOU are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about, and it is clear that YOU are the one who doesn't understand chokes.
    LOL... I've been training for over 15 years in a style that specializes in chokes.

    Meanwhile, you saw one guy who got choked out with a choke that may or may not have been held too long and you extrapolate that to mean that military guys are somehow awesome unarmed CQC fighters. If anything, that just proves how low level their ability is.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    LOL... I've been training for over 15 years in a style that specializes in chokes.

    Meanwhile, you saw one guy who got choked out with a choke that may or may not have been held too long and you extrapolate that to mean that military guys are somehow awesome unarmed CQC fighters. If anything, that just proves how low level their ability is.
    Uh, no. I said I saw a guy get choked out, attributed it to poor supervision, and as indicated, the guy may have been choked out for too long. This was during a very basic level 1 trainup.

    Not all military guys are CQC pros, and if you understood the Army, you'd know that emphasis on CQC falls mainly on combat arms, who are, except for the new guys, Level 2 or higher. If you aren't familiar with the different levels, which I'm betting you aren't, it wouldn't serve you well to comment on it, regardless of whatever skill you might have in BJJ. You probably aren't even aware that we move away from BJJ further on in the training.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  10. #100
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    And I'm done. I don't do the WC thing, so I really should just move on. If anyone wants to continue this, please PM me. Otherwise, no need to drag this out any further.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  11. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    Uh, no. I said I saw a guy get choked out, attributed it to poor supervision, and as indicated, the guy may have been choked out for too long. This was during a very basic level 1 trainup.
    Looks like you changed your story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drake- first post View Post
    I've even seen, firsthand, Level 2 guys move so quickly and powerfully that the opponent couldn't tap out before requiring a trip to the hospital due to blood being cut off to the brain.

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    Not all military guys are CQC pros, and if you understood the Army, you'd know that emphasis on CQC falls mainly on combat arms, who are, except for the new guys, Level 2 or higher. If you aren't familiar with the different levels, which I'm betting you aren't, it wouldn't serve you well to comment on it, regardless of whatever skill you might have in BJJ. You probably aren't even aware that we move away from BJJ further on in the training.
    There's a separation there between the CQC training and what it trains, and some of the soldiers in these classes.

    A lot of people who do the military for a career seem to have an attraction to hand to hand combat, and as such drift towards training martial arts outside of military classes. I train with a lot of soldiers, from privates in the Army to a F-18 pilot. After a few years experience in training with local MMA teams, it's amazing how much more skilled they become in hand to hand But it has nothing to do with military training, other than their career choice may influence their interest in it, and Combatives classes may spark the interest to train it more. Actually now that I think about it 2 local amateur MMA fighters at our gym are active duty Army. And I'm sure they went through Combatives too.

    Even the event you witnessed was probably someone with a lot more outside experience choking out a ****y soldier. That probably wasn't the direct result of the Combatives training.
    Last edited by Wayfaring; 09-11-2009 at 09:58 AM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    There's a separation there between the CQC training and what it trains, and some of the soldiers in these classes.

    A lot of people who do the military for a career seem to have an attraction to hand to hand combat, and as such drift towards training martial arts outside of military classes. I train with a lot of soldiers, from privates in the Army to a F-18 pilot. After a few years experience in training with local MMA teams, it's amazing how much more skilled they become in hand to hand But it has nothing to do with military training, other than their career choice may influence their interest in it, and Combatives classes may spark the interest to train it more. Actually now that I think about it 2 local amateur MMA fighters at our gym are active duty Army. And I'm sure they went through Combatives too.

    Even the event you witnessed was probably someone with a lot more outside experience choking out a ****y soldier. That probably wasn't the direct result of the Combatives training.

    Just about everyone who goes past Level 2 also hits up exterior training venues. I'd say a great majority of those are into the MMA arena. We were on a ride back from inprocessing some redeploying troops, and I swear they talked MMA for the entire 30 minute ride.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Looks like you changed your story.
    Not really. I admit, I shouldn't have included the superfluous hospital trip, as it was irrelevant. The point I was attempting to make is that he moved extremely fast and extremely smoothly, and the choke was extremely effective.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  15. #105
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    Slightly OT

    This isn't the U.S. Army for our Wing Chun in US Army thread. It's the Armed Forces of Malta. Still counts for our Military & TMA thread.

    Soldiers of Armed Forces of Malta learn Chinese martial arts
    Source: Xinhua| 2018-11-14 08:44:13|Editor: Yang Yi







    Soldiers of Armed Forces of Malta (AFM) practise Wing Chun moves in Luca, Malta, on Nov. 13, 2018. In cooperation with the Malta Martial Arts Association and the local martial arts community, China Cultural Center in Malta invited Zheng Zujie, a martial arts instructor and Wing Chun master from China, to provide Wing Chun Military Fighting Training Course for the AFM on Tuesday. (Xinhua/Yuan Yun)
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
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