Hung Sing dit da?

[extrajoseph]

The school was started by the first teacher, only 20 or so years later did Jung Ah-Yim took over. He did not really came into his own until after Chan Heung die.

[hskwarrior]

The school was started by the first teacher, only 20 or so years later did Jung Ah-Yim took over.

right. Jeung Hung Sing took over that school in 1875. However, it wasn't the first time for Jeung Hung Sing in Fut San. Jeung Hung Sing's 洪勝館 was founded in 1851.

There's something wrong with your records because for some reason it keeps leaving that out. And, Jeung Hung Sing's Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon was the largest and most structured schools of its time. And that is not MY assessment, I am repeating what has been reported.

[hskwarrior]

蔡李佛拳的形成

清代,洪、刘、蔡、李、莫被称为广东五大名拳,相传源自南少林。蔡福、李友山分别为蔡家拳、李家拳的代表人 物。
广东新会县京梅乡陈享(1815～1875),自幼随族叔(少林俗家弟子)陈远护习武,后拜李友山、蔡福为 师。新会县双水镇下村(今东凌村)人张炎 (1824～1893),自幼喜武,曾拜李友山为师,后随陈享习武,17岁时投奔广西八排山闸建寺青草和尚 ,得传以佛门内外八卦拳等技艺及医术。
张炎随青草和尚学艺8年,尽得真传。青草和尚便嘱张炎下山联络各方志士反清复明,并赠“鸿胜”二字予张炎为 名。“鸿”与“洪”(明开国皇帝朱元璋之年号洪武)同音,寓意反清复明事业将取得最后胜利。张炎学成归来后 ,拜见陈享,将所学到的青草和尚的拳法转授给陈享,二人将蔡、李家拳和佛门拳法进行整理,创出 “蔡李佛”拳,取明晰来源之意。由于陈、张二人各有侧重,故二人所传的拳法又有所不同。
咸丰元年(1851年),张炎在佛山开设鸿胜馆。鸿胜蔡李佛派的礼桩诗曰:“大鹏展翼反天手,魁星踢斗清名 留,拱拜五湖复四海,日月拱照万世流”。内含“反清复明”四宇。可见鸿胜馆从创办时起,就把推翻清朝统治作 为宗旨。
张炎在佛山开馆后,即响应太平天国革命,投身军中教授武技,陈享亦在石达开处当幕僚。鸿胜馆的平拳、长拳, 含有“太平天国,长安万年”之意,由此可见蔡李佛拳与太平天国革命的关系。可以说,蔡李佛拳在太平天国革命 中得到了发展和完善。现在,鸿胜馆还保留了很多两军对阵时的器械和技击术。

[hskwarrior]

省的一些专家已通过考证撰文称鸿胜馆是当时中国最大的武馆,而且是活动时间最长(1851～1949年共9 8年)的武术组织。

[hskwarrior]

青草和尚便嘱张炎下山联络各方志士反清复明,并赠“鸿胜”二字予张炎为 名。“鸿”与“洪”(明开国皇帝朱元璋之年号洪武)同音,寓意反清复明事业将取得最后胜利。

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

Do a Chinese Google search and type in these three lots of characters and see what you get:

洪勝館 - only coming from you and people who knows nothing about CLF.
鴻勝館 - lots of info and lots from Futshan
洪勝拳 - again only your stuff.

See you are making things up and the internet is now full of misinformation coming from you, even in Chinese.

Why took down the last thread? It was just getting interesting how you do your research.

[extrajoseph]

蔡李佛始祖馆大事年纪

清嘉庆十一年（1806）七月初十日子时，陈享于新会县京梅村出生，父亲为陈大能。

清嘉庆十七年（1812），陈享随同村族叔陈远护习“佛家拳”拳艺。

清道光元年（1820），陈享师从李友山习“李家拳”拳艺。

清道光三年（1823），陈享往罗浮山师从还俗和尚蔡福深造。

清道光十二年（1832），陈享从罗浮山学得大成，别师下山，于增城县剿匪有功，被朝廷授予“忠勇侯”官衔 和封号“达亭”。

清道光十四年（1834），陈享于新会县城板仔塘开设“永胜堂”药店，一边悬壶行医，一边潜心 钻研武学。

清道光十六年（1836），陈享总结历年所学，初步完成编撰武术训练体系书籍，为报答师恩，将之命名为“蔡 李佛拳谱”。并应乡中父老之邀，于该年的四月初八日，回到京梅村设“洪圣武馆”正式开始公开授徒，馆址选在 村头“缘福陈公祠”。.清道光十八至二十年间（1838－1840），陈享应林则徐之邀，前往广州两广总督 府当幕客，协助林则徐训练水师及组织“禁烟”水勇。随后，率众弟子参与第一次“鸦片战争”，抗 击外来侵略。

清道光二十二年（1842），陈享、陈尊三等人重回京梅村，抱着“以武强族”的信念，宣扬“技进可御外侮， 退则强身健魄”的主张，广收各地前来求学的青年，近代中国历史上有名的人物如洪秀全、冯云山、石达开、刘丽 川等人均曾纳于门下。

清道光二十五年（1845），陈享吸纳陈尊三的主张，在京梅村设立“祖师堂”，派遣蔡李佛精英于两广各地设 立分馆，仅两个月时间，新会的二十多条乡村以及广东、广西等地共出现了四十四间分馆，主要负责人及地点计有 ：陈典拱、陈炳竈于广州；陈承显、陈社然于新会县城；陈燕瑜、陈典鸿于江门；冯云海、陈四妹于花县；陈典胜 、陈典茂于南海；陈典桓于佛山；陈谋壮、陈邦兴于番禺；陈大成、陈华仔于肇庆；陈大楫、陈谋荣于顺德；陈典 承、陈阿牛于香山；陈典邦、陈孙祥于东莞；陈大戌、陈立德于阳春；陈大竈、陈华金于阳江；陈典惠、陈社欣于 开平；陈典珍、陈典联于新宁；陈孙栋于恩平；陈承昱于鹤山；龙子文、陈大女于广西八排山；龙子韬、陈兰姑于 广西浔洲；龙子武、陈金珠于广西南宁；龙子略、陈金玉于广西桂平；洪仁珅、陈凤娇于广西桂林。

因组织相当庞大、遍布地方极广，各分馆的负责人随时依“祖师堂”的安排，彼此进行对调。同时，为了同门互相 识别和联系，除了订下挥拳出脚发“或、的、益、吓、鹤”五音外，在“洪材定取文章事，圣算还推武略通”的门 联基础上，陈尊三还为“祖师堂”撰联“蔡李佛门源自始，少林嫡派是真传”；神位联为“拳出全凭身着力，棍来 须用眼精神”；为各分馆撰联“英棍飞腾龙摆尾，雄拳放出虎昂头”。以上两广各地分馆所培养出来的蔡李佛弟子 ，不久便成为了太平天国农民起义初期的主要军事力量。

清咸丰四年（1854）四月，陈享秘密协助其师兄“洪顺武馆”的陈松年（别号陈金刚）在江门狗山“天地会” 起义（即扯旗起事）。

清咸丰六年（1856），陈享拒绝曾国藩的游说聘请，为逃避清廷的征用，辗转南海、佛山、东莞等地，继而赴 太平天国翼王石达开处当幕客。“天国内讧”事发，石达开“出走”，陈享重返新会欲作照应。不久，农民起义彻 底失败，陈享受牵连遭受清廷追捕，被逼经香港逃往新加坡等南洋各地以行医授拳为生。

清同治三年（1864），陈享远涉重洋往三藩市，任陈氏联宗会武术教师。此前，为保护华侨同胞利益，痛击外 国恶霸基士利。

清同治七年（1868），陈享重返故里，开始专注武学理论研究，著书立说，编汇《蔡李佛技击学》等武学典著 。回乡前曾任香港广东同乡会武术教师，并于香港湾仔拳败设擂侮辱我民族的俄国大力士。“洪圣馆”在香港名声 四起，反受港英当局所忌，其借张炎（陈享的徒弟）之徒陈盛的“犯事”，对“洪圣馆”进行打压。为此被迫停止 馆务，遂更名“雄胜”及“鸿胜”以图再发展。

清光绪元年（1875），陈享指派张炎接替年老双目失明的陈典桓主理佛山分馆的馆务。农历八月廿日陈享因病 于京梅村逝世。 清光绪年间，陈官伯、李恩于广州市龙津西路徐家祠开设蔡李佛分会，这也是广州市有文史记载的首家民间武术场 馆。民国时期，“南天王”陈济棠曾为蔡李佛始祖陈享撰联“始创蔡李佛门，祖绍少林禅宗”。

公元1916年正月，曾在广州、江门、中山等地分馆任教的陈享之子陈官伯（人称蔡李佛二祖）病 故。

公元1937年，陈享之孙陈耀墀由广州返乡接替陈翼耀（后旅居加拿大）掌管京梅洪圣总馆馆务。随后，易名为 “京梅雄胜始祖馆”又称“蔡李佛始祖馆”。 上世纪五十年代初，内地各处蔡李佛武馆因故分别闭馆。此后，长达三十年基本没有开展公开性的集 体活动。

公元1972年1月，陈洁芳（陈耀墀之女）、胡云绰、陈熙、梁彪、林秋、莫民恩、汤锡等陈耀墀的入室弟子， 在香港注册登记成立“蔡李佛始祖陈享公纪念总会”。陈洁芳为永远监督，首任会长为胡云绰。

Frank,

The above is the King Mui version of CLF history derived from the Chen family archive, one can see Chan Heung did participated in many revolutionary activities and why the name has to change from 洪圣 to “雄胜” and “鸿胜”.

One can also appreciated after 30 years of non-public activities from 1937-1972 (Chinese civil war, Japanese invasion and Communist suppression), how important the forming of the "Chan Heung Memorial Association" was in Hong Kong.

The echoes of this event can still be felt in what people like Li Iu-Ling did in Australia and Wong Ha did in Canada, by promoting CLF and the memory of Chan Heung and what Chui Kwong Yuan is doing now (legacy of his father) with Futshan, by attempting to create an alternative history of CLF with Jeung Ah-Yim as the co-founder to rival Chan Heung.

History is driven by political and personal forces hidden behind the scene, without taking them into consideration, it is difficult to sort out the past and how it is affecting the present.

[chasincharpchui]

attempting to create an alternative history of CLF with Jeung Ah-Yim as the co-founder to rival Chan Heung.

History is driven by political and personal forces hidden behind the scene, without taking them into consideration, it is difficult to sort out the past and how it is affecting the present.

the above can be said the same about your side of the family with chan heung,

creating an alternate history for chan heung. afterall, it was all heresay for gm chan yiu chi's version of the history. he wasn't there when chan heung first learnt kung fu.

[extrajoseph]

The question we have to ask ourselves is which history came first? There were no mention of Ching Cho as a teacher of Jeung Ah-Yim before the early 70s and the myth started from Hong Kong. Why?

Chen Yiu-Chi version is not hearsay, because it came down through the family and is recorded in writing long before 1970.

Besides Chan Yiu-Chi, there are also King Mui records and government research done on the subject. CLF does not get to be accepted as an Intangible Cultural Heritage of China without a decent history attached to it.

Where are the primary sources for Ching Cho? There are none.

[hskwarrior]

Where are the primary sources for Ching Cho? There are none.

See, you are a habitual liar EJ. The primary sources, the ONLY source with an abundant amount of information about the monk CHING CHO is found in the Hung Mun, which is MUCH MUCH bigger than your Chan Yiu Chi archives.

The Hung Mun is only an unreliable source to YOU because you are caught up behind the myths. Since you aren't a Hung Mun member, you wouldn't understand the symbology.

洪勝館 - only coming from you and people who knows nothing about CLF.
鴻勝館 - lots of info and lots from Futshan
洪勝拳 - again only your stuff.

Really? ok. i'll let you tell it since you know it all.

The above is the King Mui version of CLF history derived from the Chen family archive,

Now, tell me why there are so many different versions of YOUR CHAN FAMILY HISTORY again?

[hskwarrior]

洪勝館 - only coming from you and people who knows nothing about CLF.

而香港洪勝館亦被視為反清組織，受到港英當局排斥，借故陳盛「犯事」為理由，查封了香港「洪聖館」，而陳盛被香港當局遞 解出境。

lol........

[hskwarrior]

Chen Yiu-Chi version is not hearsay, because it came down through the family and is recorded in writing long before 1970.

Is it because you are the Chan Family Rep that only the Chan family can pass down historyical information within their family? If not, what are you saying?

EJ...

I find it extremely hilarious that according to YOU Chan Heung was the only one allowed to do things.........

You said Jeung Hung Sing couldn't have used 洪勝 because it would get them in major trouble. Yet, Chan Heung WAS allowed to use 洪聖.

Chan Heung was the one involved with the Hung Mun, and not Jeung Hung Sing?

Chan Heung learned from the monk Ching Cho and not Jeung Yim from Ching Cho (Fong Dai Hung)?

鴻勝館 - lots of info and lots from Futshan

What? from Chan Yiu Chi's archives? TELL ME SOMETHING......why should we believe YOUR fabricated Family archives over our own? why?

Also, Howard Choy stated Jeung Hung Sing had to change his name because it was causing tooo much heat on him and the school......what name was he using before he changed it? And, what did he change it to?

[Ben Gash]

See Frank, at least you're not now claiming a legitimate historical research stance and are now coming from a genuinely political angle. As you still seem to be struggling with what constitutes a primary source, that's probably for the best.

[extrajoseph]

I

You said Jeung Hung Sing couldn't have used 洪勝 because it would get them in major trouble. Yet, Chan Heung WAS allowed to use 洪聖.

There you go again, Frank, showing your ignorance about the Chinese language, even though the 洪 character is used in both cases, they mean completely different things when the two characters are read together.

If 洪勝 (meaning Victory to the Ming) is used in Chan Heung's time, he would have been locked up straight away, whereas 洪聖 is a name of a deity, so it is beyond the emperor's suspicion, even though they have the same sound.

[extrajoseph]

Also, Howard Choy stated Jeung Hung Sing had to change his name because it was causing tooo much heat on him and the school......what name was he using before he changed it? And, what did he change it to?

It went from 洪聖 in King Mui to “雄胜" in Jiangmen, Guangzhou and HK and then finally to “鸿胜” in Futshan, all that to avoid trouble with the politics of the time, because Jeung Ah-Yim and his students were well known as fighters and they like to fight in public and that means making troubles for themselves.

But 洪勝 is never used even though that was the intentional meaning behind the three different names with the same sound, because that would be just asking for trouble. No one was that stupid, but that does not stop you from showing your stupidity in insisting that they were that stupid.