Shaolin Rou Quan - Supple (soft) Boxing

[LFJ]

Ruo is pinyin for Supple or Soft (not Rui, there is no word "rui").

(Just friendly corrections, not trying to be snobby)

actually its "rou" (柔). "ruo" might be 弱, meaning "weak".

and "rui" can be 瑞, meaning "auspicious".

so unless he means lindsay lohan creating a set called "lohan (family) auspicious boxing", then it should probably be "luohan rouquan". but you already know that.

(just friendly corrections, not trying to be snobby)

[Sal Canzonieri]

actually its "rou" (柔). "ruo" might be 弱, meaning "weak".

and "rui" can be 瑞, meaning "auspicious".

so unless he means lindsay lohan creating a set called "lohan (family) auspicious boxing", then it should probably be "luohan rouquan". but you already know that.

(just friendly corrections, not trying to be snobby)

HAHAH! How stupid of me! It is Rou, sorry. I made a typo (that I do often too!)
That's what I get for trying to correct people, darn.

Rui, yeah, he most likely means Auspicious. Since Luohan would be auspicous.

Well, regardless, I've never seen that set he did.

[SergeTk]

Proper name of the style is Luohan Ru Yi Quan ............. the link shows one of the sets/forms .........

[B-Rad]

M Zhu is an example of the power of many of the folk masters around Shaolin. As I've said so many times before, everyone fixates on the monks, but few look at the folk masters. The folk masters kept traditional Shaolin alive. If you look at Shaolin Kung Fu 2000, you'll see GM Zhu's demo team, which is pretty much wushu. The team isn't even monks. They're just some star kids from his school. Zhu isn't a monk. He's a laymen disciple like me. When people say that the traditional is all gone from Shaolin, they just don't know.

****, this guy came through Ohio (in '99 I think) with his demo team and I didn't know who he was. The Wah Lum guys were claiming these were real monks from the Shaolin Temple, but all I saw was some modern wushu demos (nothing different than what I was learning). So I just thought it was just some more amateur modern wushu guys scamming Wah Lum I went to their seminar and all they taught was a series of single line drills from some non-shaolin systems (baji, pigua, and xingyi). Zhu demoed some pretty basic taiji quan, but that's it. Not that I probably would have known what to do about it as a teenager, but it's kind of weird to have had a real Shaolin expert within a few feet of me here in Ohio at the time and have had no idea, lol.

[Sal Canzonieri]

****, this guy came through Ohio (in '99 I think) with his demo team and I didn't know who he was. The Wah Lum guys were claiming these were real monks from the Shaolin Temple, but all I saw was some modern wushu demos (nothing different than what I was learning). So I just thought it was just some more amateur modern wushu guys scamming Wah Lum I went to their seminar and all they taught was a series of single line drills from some non-shaolin systems (baji, pigua, and xingyi). Zhu demoed some pretty basic taiji quan, but that's it. Not that I probably would have known what to do about it as a teenager, but it's kind of weird to have had a real Shaolin expert within a few feet of me here in Ohio at the time and have had no idea, lol.

Are you sure it was Zhu Tian Xi? I thought he wasn't in the US til 2000?
I just read his book and he said he was in the US in 2000.

Also, I doubt he was doing Taiji Quan. He must likely was doing some internal Shaolin like Chan Quan or Rou Quan. He's a Shaolin Rou Quan and Luohan Quan master, as well as a Taizu Quan master. I don't think he ever needed to do Taiji Quan since he already doing the stuff it is based on.

[GeneChing]

Prior to S.F. Bay Area visit, they performed five shows at the Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic in Columbus, OH. That was developed by Chan Pui, Jeff Naayers, John Leong, Huang Chien Long and Lily Lau.

Shaolin Kungfu 2000 was comprised of six boys and one girl, all students of GM Zhu's school. That's pretty impressive when you consider that those kids put on a long non-stop show and most performance troupes, whether they be monks or wushu champs, carry a team 3 to 6 times that size. They were all modern wushu performers, not monks at all, but the boys did shave their heads and wear robes. Gm Zhu was very clear about them not being monks and so were we when we held the performance (however there was one slip up by our MC who called the smallest boy a "little monk" at one point). That distinction might have been distorted in OH because the Arnold has a political aspect (as in real politics, now Governor of California politics, not just your run-of-the-mill politics in any circle of humans). The team met Arnold apparently, along with Ronald McDonald and the Mayor of Columbus. They were also given customized leather jackets from Arnold's personal tailor, which just goes to show. If they thought they were Buddhist monks, a leather gift would have been horridly insensitive. But then again, this is the Governator we're talking about.

[B-Rad]

Also, I doubt he was doing Taiji Quan. He must likely was doing some internal Shaolin like Chan Quan or Rou Quan. He's a Shaolin Rou Quan and Luohan Quan master, as well as a Taizu Quan master. I don't think he ever needed to do Taiji Quan since he already doing the stuff it is based on.

Sorry, it was 2000. I remember now because it was the year I tore my ACL :-P It wasn't part of the official performance or anything, basically at the seminar he did some taiji quan with the older folk. Looked like standard taiji quan (24 form, or one of the related forms, I'm pretty sure I recognized the sequence). I suppose it could've been Rou Quan and my memory is fuzzy, since I didn't even know Rou Quan existed. Or they could've been showing him some Wah Lum taiji and he joined in. The guy seemed was pretty friendly :-) I missed their actual demo performance.

Gm Zhu was very clear about them not being monks and so were we when we held the performance (however there was one slip up by our MC who called the smallest boy a "little monk" at one point). That distinction might have been distorted in OH because the Arnold has a political aspect (as in real politics, now Governor of California politics, not just your run-of-the-mill politics in any circle of humans). The team met Arnold apparently, along with Ronald McDonald and the Mayor of Columbus.

GM Zhu may have been clear about it, but the Wah Lum people DEFINITELY weren't. Was flat out told by Jeff Naayers and everyone else in Wah Lum that they were actual monks from the Shaolin Temple

[GeneChing]

Most of them were actually too young. Two of the males were of age, maybe four, hard to say... I probably have their exact details somewhere. Technically speaking, you can't become a 'shaolin monk' until your over 18. Before that, you are considered a shami which is a class of child initiates.

Zhu Tianxi is not a monk. He's a layman disciple (like me ). Zhu is a disciple of Shi Degen, and bears the Shaolin name Xingzhen.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin Rou Quan 108 postures set by Zhu Tian Xi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb8ifq9xM00

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin Rou Quan 36 Postures set, Yi Lu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lskXBOfCIMA

Er Lu is posted there to somewhere.

[LFJ]

rouquan by shi yanxu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rin1gJ4CaK0

[Sal Canzonieri]

rouquan by shi yanxu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rin1gJ4CaK0

That's the Yi Lu set, thanks!
Hmm, interesting take on this set. Seems to have some chen new frame tjq in it.
chicken or the egg here?

[LFJ]

hi sal,

was wondering if you know the history and origin of the separate rouquan sets.

the three sets from shi degen's lineage, starting first with the luohan 13 shi qigong set, is said to have been created by second chan patriarch huike. (with one arm? )

then there is a single set listed in the shaolin encyc. which says it was created even earlier than the above. it says batuo's disciple, monk chou (seng chou) also known as "chan master chou" (chou chanshi), was skilled in qigong and fighting, and everyday had people come to ask for lessons from him. in order to help the old monks exercise too, he developed this rouquan set of originally 18 postures by combining his combat experience with the basic skills of luohan shiba shou. in the qing dynasty monk zhanju (湛举) edited the set and expanded it to 41 postures.

now what about the yilu and erlu rouquan sets done often by shi yanzhuang? they are visually unrelated to the other rouquan sets. what is the story on them?

[Sal Canzonieri]

hi sal,

was wondering if you know the history and origin of the separate rouquan sets.

the three sets from shi degen's lineage, starting first with the luohan 13 shi qigong set, is said to have been created by second chan patriarch huike. (with one arm? )

then there is a single set listed in the shaolin encyc. which says it was created even earlier than the above. it says batuo's disciple, monk chou (seng chou) also known as "chan master chou" (chou chanshi), was skilled in qigong and fighting, and everyday had people come to ask for lessons from him. in order to help the old monks exercise too, he developed this rouquan set of originally 18 postures by combining his combat experience with the basic skills of luohan shiba shou. in the qing dynasty monk zhanju (湛举) edited the set and expanded it to 41 postures.

now what about the yilu and erlu rouquan sets done often by shi yanzhuang? they are visually unrelated to the other rouquan sets. what is the story on them?

There was a whole Rou Quan system, usually only the old people did them, they were considered too advanced. There are a series of neigong sets that one learns fist in the system, they are the ones that Shi Degen and now Zhu Tienxi taught (6 harmony gong, Chang Yuan Gong, Luohan 13 Gong, maybe Longshen Gong, and some others).

There are 5 different clusters of Shaolin Rou Quan.

- The one you are talking about above as shown in the Shaolin Encyc. would be the oldest.
Supposedly the Luohan 13 Gong Quan set (it is 18 postures, 22 movements counting repeat postures) was the original Rou Quan 18 postures set of Cheng Chou, it comes from staff and farmer movements (and of course is both a qigong set and a self defense set). The 18 Luohan Hands material that was added to the original 18 postures during the Qing dynasty to make it to 41 can be seen when you look at the 41 movements.

- then there is the ones that Shi Yanzhuang does (and Liu Zhenhai !), Yi Lu and Er Lu (36 postures each - important Shaolin number). Well, there's a debate about these sets. If you look at the Shaolin encyc., there is a section before the section that shows the drawings of the routines. It is a section on "lost" routines. The Rou Quan Er Lu and San Lu mentioned there are the same as the sets that Shi Yanzhuang does, essentially. The order of the movements from the "lost" sets are out of order and jumbled up. Maybe because the names of the movements were preserved from memory? Please go there to that section and read what it says about those three sets (the Yi Lu it lists there is exactly the same as the drawings for the set you mentioned about from Batuo, so since it is not "lost" why is it listed?)
(Right before these sets are listed three Shaolin Chang Quan sets, Yi Lu is the Taizu chang quan set, er lu and san lu are really lost and people are searching for them in case they have been renamed in another Henan folk long fist style. Please read what it says there too in case there is any history stuff, let me know thanks!)
Anyways, these two sets are VERY close to Chen TJQ as well, if you combine the Xiao Hong Quan set, the Taizu Chang Quan 32 posture set, and these two Rou Quan sets, you have the complete movements to the Chen TJQ Lao Jia Yi Lu set, nothing is missing whatsoever. The Yang style emphasized the Xiao Hong quan movements because Yang Lu Chan's village was famous for its shaolin hong quan. Both him and his first students, the famous Wu brothers (founders of Wu taiji Quan which makes Yang TJQ with Zhaobao TJQ) all are experts at Hong Quan.

- Also, there are the three sets of Rou Quan that Shi Degen taught. Which are said to come from one armed Haike. I was reading that he was an ex-military man and he came to Shaolin because he has lost his right arm in battle. Many Ming era sets descended from Jue Yuan / Bai Yufeng, such as Luohan and other Shaolin sets start on the left when stepping and begin with left hand in Honor of him, by the way. (all the OLDER pre-Ming era material descended from Zhao Kuang Yin - Chang quan, hong quan, pao quan, tongbi quan, etc., instead start on the right and follow the same beginning pattern as the Chen TJQ Yi Lu set, by the way.) There is the Rou Quan Yi Lu (which is 18 Luohan 13 Gong quan), there is a 108 movement set (I posted all these on YouTube), and supposedly a San Lu set that no one has ever seen (if you get what I was getting at with that phoney baloney guy before! Nudge, wink, wink). So far Zhu Tienxi hasn't shown it, neither has any of his school brothers or students. I would guess that if it still exits it would be 36 or 72 postures, to make 18, 36 / 72, 108, the normal size of a series of Shaolin sets.

- There is some Rou Quan sets that come from the Da Bei Quan style, that are said to have originated from Shaolin Rou Quan material once.

- There are some other Shaolin Rou Quan sets from other lineages that are very different from these all. I think they come from other time periods and influences. I posted some of these on YouTube.

BUT, the 16th century Priest Dong Cheng Tongbi / Tongbei Quan styles claims that he created some Rou Quan sets after he learned Taoist Neijia Quan and he merged those ideas with Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan sets AND then taught this set to Shaolin sometime during his lifetime. I have the lyrics to the set, it is 49 postures, it is pretty much just like Chen Taiji Quan Yi Lu with some odd postures here and there that are not found in Chen TJQ.

I have seen a Shaolin Rou Quan set that is long and very much like taiji quan, but I haven't had the chance to compare the two sets yet.

Also, sets that were perhaps Shaolin Mein Quan sets might be called Rou Quan sets now in some lineages (since both mean Soft Boxing).
And some Rou Quan sets are new called Shaolin Taiji Quan or Buddhist Taiji Quan in some lineages as well.

Do you know where any Shaolin Mein Quan sets are posted online?

[LFJ]

to get that straight,

you're saying the luohan 13 gong quan (the first of "3" from shi degen) "created by" huike, is supposedly the original 18 posture set created by sengchou, but edited to 41 movements in the qing dynasty?

and so sengchou's set shown in the encyc. is the qing dynasty shi zhanju 41 posture edition, and listed as yilu to the sets done by shi yanzhuang in the lost routines section? (perhaps "lost" refers to the original 18 or precise 41, btw which section number is it?)

but the luohan 13 gong quan set is really different from yanzhuang's sets.

which would mean that the luohan 13 gong quan is the oldest, and created by abbot batuo's disciple sengchou in the northern wei dynasty, rather than second chan patriarch huike.

it would also mean that since the 41 posture set is yilu to the two done by yanzhuang, and it was created in the qing dynasty, then these other two sets are also qing dynasty era at most.

as for the 108 posture set then, hard telling when it was created, if not also by sengchou since it is more inline with the luohan 13 gong quan than those other sets.

the only shaolin mianquan i have seen is done by master deyang's school. they are performing it here:
http://www.56.com/u85/v_NDM0OTgyOTg.html