Shaolin Rou Quan - Supple (soft) Boxing

[LFJ]

Yeah, 18 postures. The encyclopedia says it was expanded to the current 41 postures by Qing Dynasty monk Shi Zhanju who's credited with quite a lot in the Qing.

[GeneChing]

hey sal I see alot of your research is in the recent Kung Fu Tai Chi Shaolin Special.

I intentionally avoided Sal's work on this subject for our recent cover story. That was out of respect for his research (I would have cited if there were any actual quotes), as well as my constant effort to keep things fresh. However, I can't help it if we reached some of the same conclusions. That's reaffirming, yes?

The Soft Fist By Gene Ching and Gigi Oh appears in our Shaolin Special 2013, which hits the newsstands next week.

Rouquan is really only the hook in this article, mostly for those that don't really know Shaolin. The piece is more about current trends at the Shaolin Temple Cultural Center in America. Nevertheless, I'll be eager to hear your reactions - both positive and negative. Thanks, as always, for your support.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yeah, 18 postures. The encyclopedia says it was expanded to the current 41 postures by Qing Dynasty monk Shi Zhanju who's credited with quite a lot in the Qing.

1727 Qing Emperor then forbade, punishable by death, any Han martial arts practice, especially at Shaolin, they knocked down all the gates and rebuilt the area to make it more accessible.
Since Shaolin monks still feared government prosecution, they secretly learnt and practiced it. During the the late 1700s/early 1800s, monks Haifa, Zhanmo, and Zhanju were among those who left Shaolin and practiced Wushu in a small monastery Shigau Monastery.

That explains Zhanyu being so involved with the design of Shaolin martial arts.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I intentionally avoided Sal's work on this subject for our recent cover story. That was out of respect for his research (I would have cited if there were any actual quotes), as well as my constant effort to keep things fresh. However, I can't help it if we reached some of the same conclusions. That's reaffirming, yes?

The Soft Fist By Gene Ching and Gigi Oh appears in our Shaolin Special 2013, which hits the newsstands next week.

Rouquan is really only the hook in this article, mostly for those that don't really know Shaolin. The piece is more about current trends at the Shaolin Temple Cultural Center in America. Nevertheless, I'll be eager to hear your reactions - both positive and negative. Thanks, as always, for your support.

Cool, excited to read it!

[ngokfei]

LOL

"I intentionally avoided Sal's work on this subject for our recent cover story. "

Why?

So, what was your sources for this material then? You do want to give credit to those individuals work.

You avoided his work to show respect for his research - now that doesn't make sense.

[GeneChing]

Sal's research is great. We published some over the years. It can be a little too focused for our general readership as his scholarship goes screaming above the heads of many of our readers and I hate to chop it up to make it fit within our format, so I've had to pass on a few, but that was not out of disrespect for his work. We're a newsstand mag, not a scholarly journal, so not everything works. Fortunately, there's the internet. As Sal does fine publishing it on his own, there's no need for me to repeat what he wrote. The point of that article was not to quote Sal.

The source for the bulk of the information was the subject of the article, Shi Yanxu. I supplemented some with my own research (believe it or not, I do research this stuff too ). Truth be told, I was actually hoping it would come out more divergent from Sal's stuff on Rouquan, just to get an alternate perspective, but he has the topic pretty well covered in his articles (I think all the important ones are cited in this thread).

But again, Rouquan was the hook. I only examined the history, methodology and roots of it in a very cursory manner. The piece was more about misconceptions of Shaolin (that it's only external) and trends in the Shaolin diaspora. Many Shaolin schools are moving ever so gently towards more internal methods like Rouquan. What's more, there was a major focus on the upcoming American Shaolin Festival which Yanxu is spearheading, as well as the new international ranking system. The song of Rouquan, which runs through the article, provided the chorus to discuss several other topics in the different verses. It was the cover story, after all.

[LFJ]

as well as the new international ranking system.

Uh oh. More McTemples on the horizon?

[GeneChing]

You'll have to read the issue.

Look at the cover blurb carefully.


"Shaolin's new ranking systemS"

[Sal Canzonieri]

Just 5 years ago, no one heard of Rou Quan most anywhere. Now it is all over the place, and there are tons of videos around.

But my articles still are the only ones that people quote from:
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMA...SoftBoxing.htm

There's much more about it in my forthcoming book.
I finally made it to chapter 5 of 8 in the final draft.

[Sal Canzonieri]

ha, thanks.



hey LFJ, realized we previously talked about Zhu Tianxi and his "creation" of set in the Ape Monkey Fist thread. Ren mentioned that he read that Zhu said he created the 6 Harmony qigong set (Nothing about him creating the other sets). and I responded with:

""Shaolin Wu Fang Chan Gong" 'Five Direction Chan Work' section of this book:
中医气功学
ISBN 978-7-80231-223-4

Some of the same postures with the same names, but the 3rd one is missing and instead a totally different 5th one is there (which is found in Chan Yuan Gong). And there is no 6th one.

So, I don't see how he "invented" it, just changed it to make it his own. "


So, Zhu or Shi Degen got it from there originally. Zhi must have reorganized it and renamed it.

So, that's one set that Zhu didn't create himself, the movements (even posture names) are from there.

He didn't originate the (18 ) Louhan 13 Postures material, so that leaves the 108 only. Being that there is video of him performing a version of it when he was much much younger (not exactly the same as the 108 in his older age video), then what did he do? add more to it to create his VCD version of the 108 (which I have seen called Da Rou Quan)? Hmmm.

[LFJ]

But does that book say anything on its history? It was just published in 2007. What's to say it wasn't drawn from Zhu Tianxi's?

Zhu said he created it after 10 years of study combining his Shaolin training with his knowledge of Neigong. The word he used is "duchuang" which means 'original creation'. Is it a blatant lie?

I definitely think his 108 Rouquan is more than likely his own. It combines sequences from Paoquan and 'his' Luohan sets, then it's all an extension of Chanyuangong. Many of the individual movements are indeed ancient, but as RenDaHai mentioned, it's not especially well structured like other ancient sets.

Do you have a video of his younger years performance of the 108? It would be interesting to see and compare nonetheless.

[Sal Canzonieri]

But does that book say anything on its history? It was just published in 2007. What's to say it wasn't drawn from Zhu Tianxi's?

Zhu said he created it after 10 years of study combining his Shaolin training with his knowledge of Neigong. The word he used is "duchuang" which means 'original creation'. Is it a blatant lie?

I definitely think his 108 Rouquan is more than likely his own. It combines sequences from Paoquan and 'his' Luohan sets, then it's all an extension of Chanyuangong. Many of the individual movements are indeed ancient, but as RenDaHai mentioned, it's not especially well structured like other ancient sets.

Do you have a video of his younger years performance of the 108? It would be interesting to see and compare nonetheless.

The book is a pretty deep overview of all different types of qigong and neigong. There's all different Shaolin and non-Shaolin material in the book. It doesn't give any indications that the set shown is from Zhu, especially since it has a different name and different ending moves. So, you could say he took his Shaolin training with is knowledge of neigong and modified this Wu Fang Chan Qigong set to make his Six Harmony, but he didn't make it out of thin air.

The 108 Rou Quan seems really disjointed like new sections were added in. The video I have of him when he is much younger is the same one that I have on my YouTube videos where he is doing the Jingang set and a lot of there ones. I will have to find it and post it on YouTube when I get the chance. It is a much more fluid set and flows well with the other Shi Degen material. His new version just looks like he made it longer by adding in the Chanyuan Qigong material into it.
He is really much younger in the original version, I don't see how he could have created it by then. Other people do the version I have seen in the original Rou Quan, not his newer 108 Rou Quan.

[GeneChing]

Changong Rouquan (Chan Merit Soft Fist) By Shi Yanxu 禪功柔拳 - 釋延續

[Sal Canzonieri]

Changong Rouquan (Chan Merit Soft Fist) By Shi Yanxu 禪功柔拳 - 釋延續

That's great, thanks!
Rou Quan Routine #1

#2 is a little shorter.

[GeneChing]

The Soft Fist by Gene Ching and Gigi Oh.

Hope you invested in the print issue too.