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Thread: Hong Jong - Empty Dummy

  1. #1
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    Hong Jong - Empty Dummy

    Does any one practice the Hong Jong/Air Dummy.

    After you learn the Muk Yan Jong form you can also practice it in the air with out a dummy. Does anyone see this as useful or necessary to produce any benefits. If you see any benefits to practicing the Air Dummy/Empty Dumm form let me know?

    I see a few videos of the dummy being practice By chinese. But I never seen any westerners practicing the Hong Jong.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuASgwTsinE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX_puQ553oo

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...m&hl=en&emb=1#

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMWosMEZ4-8
    Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 09-02-2009 at 09:04 AM.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  2. #2
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    If you're a guy that likes forms and likes long sequences, that is again the benefit of solo practice of the Hung Jong. Its an aid to memory and practicing your movements in the air. Chinese like long forms as it helps to discover the full spectrum of movement and possibilities, and would help them remember movements they might otherwise forget.

    I guess you can say that is like sex with an imaginary blow up doll.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    I see a few videos of the dummy being practice By chinese. But I never seen any westerners practicing the Hong Jong.
    Hey. I'm the white guy practicing the Air Dummy.
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

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    interesting westerner

    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    Hey. I'm the white guy practicing the Air Dummy.
    oh really can I see the video?
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  5. #5
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    We often have beginning students practice our Cheurn Kiu Sau dummy form in the air when first being introduced to it. With larger class sizes and only 3 dummies, it's also necessary. They usually mimic in the air behing someone using the actual dummy. They can still practice the movements/sequences, angles, fwd. intent, etc without the dummy contact, and it makes it easier for them to transition to the dummy after they have some of the basic the sequence down.

    Of course, these same movements are also used directly in our partner training as well. The solo work seems to help them learn the initial movements and angles without the added fear/confusion beginners sometimes have with the dummy contact. So, learn the movements in the air a few times, on a partner and on the dummy and repeat. Each one reinforces the next and gives better understanding of the other two.

    I'm not chinese, and not sure about the whole "love long forms" or blow up doll thing, but it seems like a logical training progression to me
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 09-02-2009 at 01:40 PM.

  6. #6
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    But I never seen any westerners practicing the Hong Jong.
    You need to get out more. I've been practicing it for over 20 years.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    You need to get out more. I've been practicing it for over 20 years.
    You beat me to it Andrew.
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    i do it. I find it interesting as moves are slightly changed as you dont have to compensate for the arms not moving. I also find it easier to reference where the person is as we all know the dummy body is not always your opponents body. You can do certain moves full extension and the steps tend to be different. I also do it as i work 12 hrs shift s so i dont get to use my dummy as much as being at work.
    Last edited by bennyvt; 09-03-2009 at 06:12 AM. Reason: preemptive text

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyvt View Post
    i do it. I find it interesting as moves are slightly changed as you dont have to compensate for the arms not moving. I also find it easier to reference where the person is as we all know the dummy body is not always your opponents body. You can do certain moves full extension and the steps tend to be different. I also do it as i work 12 hrs shift s so i dont get to use my dummy as much as being at work.
    Great feed back. Finally some well informed answers from a real WC practioner. I am over joyed you shared your experience openly and honestly. May you always increase in skill. But I would have to concur with what you were saying. Also different techniques can be drilled on a person as well as the dummy or even other inanimate objects such as trees to give you different angles and posistioning and height and distances to work with. Excellent keep the quality information coming

    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    We often have beginning students practice our Cheurn Kiu Sau dummy form in the air when first being introduced to it. With larger class sizes and only 3 dummies, it's also necessary. They usually mimic in the air behing someone using the actual dummy. They can still practice the movements/sequences, angles, fwd. intent, etc without the dummy contact, and it makes it easier for them to transition to the dummy after they have some of the basic the sequence down.

    Of course, these same movements are also used directly in our partner training as well. The solo work seems to help them learn the initial movements and angles without the added fear/confusion beginners sometimes have with the dummy contact. So, learn the movements in the air a few times, on a partner and on the dummy and repeat. Each one reinforces the next and gives better understanding of the other two.

    I'm not chinese, and not sure about the whole "love long forms" or blow up doll thing, but it seems like a logical training progression to me

    Oh my friend thank you tremendoulsy for sharing your views. Excellent comments. Thank you for showing me that their are real WC fighters left in the world. I understand and agree with all your saying. Personally I don't think Long long forms are beneficial at all. I think shorter forms make more sense. The more condense and simple the better.



    If anyone else has any post that are actually useful please share.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  10. #10
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    You guys are talking about useful tools for beginners, which is fine.

    Let's use an analogy - you enroll in Kama Sutra school and want to learn to make love to a woman. Please humor me on this, and this is all tongue in cheek. You first learn movements of lovemaking in the air, then do repetitive pre-sex movements with a partner. Then have sex with a blow up doll, then do sex in the air imagining doing it with a blow up doll...? When do you actually get to do it?

    LOL!

  11. #11
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    I do it regularly, in the air and on the dummy, good benefits!!!!! Helps the mind too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    You guys are talking about useful tools for beginners, which is fine.

    Let's use an analogy - you enroll in Kama Sutra school and want to learn to make love to a woman. Please humor me on this, and this is all tongue in cheek. You first learn movements of lovemaking in the air, then do repetitive pre-sex movements with a partner. Then have sex with a blow up doll, then do sex in the air imagining doing it with a blow up doll...? When do you actually get to do it?

    LOL!
    Your analogy is garbage, and makes me wonder where you derived your 'sense' of humor. You are comparing two very dissimilar things. Hopefully you won't continute the mistake by comparing fighting to something as dissimilar as dry land swimming or tennis or something

    Let me ask you, do you find any use for SNT, CK, BJ forms after the first year?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Your analogy is garbage, and makes me wonder where you derived your 'sense' of humor. You are comparing two very dissimilar things. Hopefully you won't continute the mistake by comparing fighting to something as dissimilar as dry land swimming or tennis or something

    Let me ask you, do you find any use for SNT, CK, BJ forms after the first year?
    Hey my friend let me tell you SNT is useful for beginners and idiots. You dont need a form. You want a form watch skill resistant fighters and do what you see them do. This real form practice. You see them punch you punch like they do against resistant compentant fighters. After you spent years of getting socked in head and groin like real compentant fighters than you will understand true Wing Chun.

    Sil lim Tao, Chum Kiu and Bill Gee have alot of use. Have some smelly unskilled student do those forms in front of mirror imagining they are really fighting. But for us real fighters we don't watch arms flop around in the mirrior. Fighting is like eating. Do you need a mirror to watch the spoon of soup go into your mouth. Do you need a set hand pattern to practice each day to make sure you use the toliet correctly. No you sit your arse down...do some grunting, Push, squeeze and in some instances pulll until you hear the water splash and then you grab some toilet tissue to wipe your arse with. Let me see do you need a solo form to learn how to use the toliet?

    Let me Guess. SOTT This means Sit on the toilet.


    The SOTT form
    First you open. Then your hands slide to your trouser. next you unbutton your troser with the left hand and right hand. Then your right hand slides the zipper down while your left hand clasp your pants together. Next both hands go to your sides. Now slide your trousers down. Next with both hands Gan Sau your drawers. Now squat. Then place all your arse pressure on to bowl. Sit back. Keep the back straight. Head looking forward. Push on your coien. Release and Dispel the negative Chi. Now you did it all your negative vibrations will begin to fill the waters below your buttocks with negative chi stool. After your have completed grunting and some cases yelling and screaming you close by sitting up. Wiping your brown or green buttocks clean of debris. both hands pull your speedos up. Now your trousers. Now your button your trousers with both hands. Next zip the zipper with the right hand. place hands at your side. Now exhale. Thus conclusion of the SOTT form.

    Practicing SNT form is like practicing the SOTT Form. its utterly useless unless your attacker decides he needs to practice a forms before he hits you. Oh yea some guy might even attack you with their form on street. Like some Shotokan guy trying to apply his kata upon your face. Then You want to use bil gee or chum kiu to seek his bridge.

    In my humble opinion fighting with a set pattern will you get submitted and knocked out. The fight will end before you can even get to Tan Sau fok Sau motion. An you will be the one on the ground bleeding...ha ha...

    So if you want a real form find competent fighters who are actually resisting you. Then see if your form wiill defeat them.


    Now Chauslis is my answer on the money yet buddy????

    Sorry Jpinaz
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  14. #14
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    My apologies to anyone offended and enrolled in the Kama Sutra school of sex.

    SNT and CK represent 95% of WCK to me. But after one has practiced it and knows it for a while - hopefully, they would do well to internalize its principles. After that, combing your hair is your form, brushing teeth is your form, daily movement is your form.

    The ancients spoke of Wu Ji to Tai Ji, to Liang yi, to Si Xiang, to Ba Gua, to 64 gua, and the 10000 changes. Few understand that it later goes back from 10000 changes, to 64 gua, to Ba Gua, to Si Xiang, to Liang Yi, back to Tai Ji, and finally Wu Ji again.

    So in a sense, Yoshi is correct. Who tells you to take a dump? You just do it.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Let's use an analogy - you enroll in Kama Sutra school and want to learn to make love to a woman, and this is all tongue in cheek.

    LOL!
    you must've gotten hold of the Greek edition... ;-p (_!_)
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
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