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Thread: Hong Jong - Empty Dummy

  1. #16
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    anyone who thinks the forms are useless after the first year has no idea about vt. Who teacher you to ****. Yous parents they show you where to go, how to clean up etc. The form are not patterns that you use like combos each wove is entirely seperate. If you dont do the forms you tend to just do ****. We always say you lose about 50 percent of skill in a fight. If all you do is make the vt work you wont tend to do it properly. Spending all your time doing it wrong teaches you to do it wrong. Forms isolate the moves so it can be made perfect. Might be why most people look like kickboxers when they fight. The techniques should atleast resemble vt. If you are prefect in practice you should be at least decent when you fight.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyvt View Post
    If you dont do the forms you tend to just do ****. We always say you lose about 50 percent of skill in a fight. If all you do is make the vt work you wont tend to do it properly. Spending all your time doing it wrong teaches you to do it wrong. Forms isolate the moves so it can be made perfect. Might be why most people look like kickboxers when they fight. The techniques should atleast resemble vt. If you are prefect in practice you should be at least decent when you fight.
    Depends on what you practice and how you practice.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    My apologies to anyone offended and enrolled in the Kama Sutra school of sex.

    SNT and CK represent 95% of WCK to me. But after one has practiced it and knows it for a while - hopefully, they would do well to internalize its principles. After that, combing your hair is your form, brushing teeth is your form, daily movement is your form.

    The ancients spoke of Wu Ji to Tai Ji, to Liang yi, to Si Xiang, to Ba Gua, to 64 gua, and the 10000 changes. Few understand that it later goes back from 10000 changes, to 64 gua, to Ba Gua, to Si Xiang, to Liang Yi, back to Tai Ji, and finally Wu Ji again.

    So in a sense, Yoshi is correct. Who tells you to take a dump? You just do it.

    Wow...he went a little hendrik on us there witl all the Wu Ji stuff. Anyway now he agrees with me. An I was talking a mouthful of BS...I was being overly sarcastic and He says I am right by dump thing...Anyway I just wanted to comment on this because in away he is not actually given his opinion on what he believes concerning form practice. On one hand it says the first two forms are 95% of WC which too me is a major strecth. You don't do form practice 95% of the time in class do you? An then on another note he compared my analogy of taking a dump to that of doing forms. So which is buddy...

    Tell us Robert Chu...

    Is practicing Sil Lim Tao Useless or Useful.



    Please swallow the blue or red pill. Don't mix them both


    Quote Originally Posted by bennyvt View Post
    anyone who thinks the forms are useless after the first year has no idea about vt. Who teacher you to ****. Yous parents they show you where to go, how to clean up etc. The form are not patterns that you use like combos each wove is entirely seperate. If you dont do the forms you tend to just do ****. We always say you lose about 50 percent of skill in a fight. If all you do is make the vt work you wont tend to do it properly. Spending all your time doing it wrong teaches you to do it wrong. Forms isolate the moves so it can be made perfect. Might be why most people look like kickboxers when they fight. The techniques should atleast resemble vt. If you are prefect in practice you should be at least decent when you fight.


    Another Excellent post...Thank you very much for your input. This is the example of a useful post...Although I have no idea what the word **** is??? maybe you can write the word with a non-vulgar counterpart???
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Wow...he went a little hendrik on us there witl all the Wu Ji stuff.
    Do you understand the intent of the post? To train using form and then transcending form?

    On one hand it says the first two forms are 95% of WC which too me is a major strecth. You don't do form practice 95% of the time in class do you?
    Isn't there a commonly held view that one can fight after only training SNT and CK? You're confusing curriculum with essence.

    Is practicing Sil Lim Tao Useless or Useful.
    Depends where you are in your training. If you understand what the forms give you then you don't necessarily need to return to them unless you think there is value in it. Personally I do think that interactive training with another human being is the best option.

  5. #20
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    Forms can be useful...but as everyone thinks they know best, they will never expand their understand.

    Robert is correct in IMHO that you transend form and need to do the real thing wheather.... sex or fighting.

    To me, its very useful doing air dummy as its different from on the dummy. most kung fu systems have forms which allow full motion, flow and body cotnrol, air dummy is a good answer to that.

    I like returning to the forms although I know them and teach them all the time. I find they provide mental training and a return to basics, elbows, strucutre etc.

    I say do what is difficult, forms are easy great move onto sparring, air dummy is easy move onto somethign else, one legged stance is easy, move onto something else....if its difficult for you to do it might be worth doing it more.

    Paul
    www.moifa.co.uk

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul T England View Post
    Forms can be useful...but as everyone thinks they know best, they will never expand their understand.

    Robert is correct in IMHO that you transend form and need to do the real thing wheather.... sex or fighting.

    To me, its very useful doing air dummy as its different from on the dummy. most kung fu systems have forms which allow full motion, flow and body cotnrol, air dummy is a good answer to that.

    I like returning to the forms although I know them and teach them all the time. I find they provide mental training and a return to basics, elbows, strucutre etc.

    I say do what is difficult, forms are easy great move onto sparring, air dummy is easy move onto somethign else, one legged stance is easy, move onto something else....if its difficult for you to do it might be worth doing it more.

    Paul
    www.moifa.co.uk
    another excellent post. In my opinion in a class setting one should seek to drill and spar and chi sau. But when working alone. One should work on their forms, hit their wooden man, practice their solo drills. I believe everytime you practice the form you are developing more skills with in your wing chun. There are new insights and lightbulbs to be turned on everytime you enaged the simple solo basics.

    There is a time to drill, a time to fight, a time to chi sau and a time to do form practice.

    I don't think forms should be forsaken, When your alone you can work on those things. With other people you work on other things.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  7. #22
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    totally agree in a two hour class an hour form is a waste. But if you do training all day, partner training is impossible and dangerous.

  8. #23
    forms are simply solo time to develop freefighting as the goal.
    Slt develops centerline striking , elbow angles, line clearing actions, attack arm cycling, bridge recovery ....
    Chum kil teaches to face with turning , not to turn away from the target huge change in goals.
    The dummy is slt + ck movement and the idea flowing with bg thrown in for good measure.

  9. #24
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    I found that the Hong Jong formed a link, or bridged a gap, from the Mook Jong to using the techniques. It's a connection that is formed ,or perhaps broken.
    Sometimes, when you play a set like th ejong, you only see it as the jong, or as you and the jong. Hong Jong breaks that connection and brings it to the realm of fighting.
    Hard to express, or imagine, since it is still practicing "form" in the air, but it becomes like shadowboxing. Apparantly, it was a neccesary step, otherwise, would it exist?
    Anyway, that is my opinion and limited experience.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  10. #25
    Hi,

    According to GM Ip Chun:

    When Si Jo Yip Man arrived in Hong Kong from Fut San (long history skipped), and started to teach Wing Chin, he had a difficulty in teaching the jong faat. There were no such Wing Chun jongs in HK.

    This is because in way back in his house, his jong is actually rooted into the ground. In HK, all the houses were multi-storeyed, making it difficult to do that.
    Imagine your downstairs neighbour seeing you drill a hole upstairs.

    So he came up with the idea of teaching the jong faat, empty handed.

    After awhile, his disciples proposed the idea of "hanging" the jong on
    a wooden frame, which came to be the jong we are all using now. Further
    down the road, many other innovative ideas were introduced, like the standing
    nailed ones etc etc.
    "In fighting, the hand you can see will not hurt you, the hand you cannot see, will hurt you." - Grandmaster Gary Lam

  11. #26
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    You don't do form practice 95% of the time in class do you?
    No. Forms are for solo training.

    Class time is better spent on working with partners. If your class is spent doing forms and/or conditioning, it is wasteful, because you can and should do most of that on your own.

    Sometimes, when you play a set like th ejong, you only see it as the jong, or as you and the jong. Hong Jong breaks that connection and brings it to the realm of fighting.
    I agree with this.

    So he came up with the idea of teaching the jong faat, empty handed.
    No disrespect intended, but that idea is hardly a deductive leap of genius.
    Last edited by anerlich; 09-04-2009 at 09:53 PM.
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  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    No disrespect intended, but that idea is hardly a deductive leap of genius.
    No problem, i'm just contributing what i know, and i didn't mean it to be,
    i am just stating the facts.
    "In fighting, the hand you can see will not hurt you, the hand you cannot see, will hurt you." - Grandmaster Gary Lam

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Wow...he went a little hendrik on us there witl all the Wu Ji stuff. Anyway now he agrees with me. An I was talking a mouthful of BS...I was being overly sarcastic and He says I am right by dump thing...Anyway I just wanted to comment on this because in away he is not actually given his opinion on what he believes concerning form practice. On one hand it says the first two forms are 95% of WC which too me is a major strecth. You don't do form practice 95% of the time in class do you? An then on another note he compared my analogy of taking a dump to that of doing forms. So which is buddy...

    Tell us Robert Chu...

    Is practicing Sil Lim Tao Useless or Useful.

    Please swallow the blue or red pill. Don't mix them both
    Yoshi,

    Its obvious you are very green and young. And I am being polite.

    The form becomes you after a while - how long depends on you. SNT and CK can create almost every move in WCK - so the 95% is not that much of a stretch.

    I think you may need remedial reading - I never said 95% of class time is spent on these forms.

    Is SNT useful or useless to you? That is the real question. Gu Lao WCK uses no forms. Do you really need a form? Who is the one that needs a form?

    As for blue and red pills, perhaps you have mixed up your suppositories...

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    I found that the Hong Jong formed a link, or bridged a gap, from the Mook Jong to using the techniques. It's a connection that is formed ,or perhaps broken.
    Sometimes, when you play a set like th ejong, you only see it as the jong, or as you and the jong. Hong Jong breaks that connection and brings it to the realm of fighting.
    Hard to express, or imagine, since it is still practicing "form" in the air, but it becomes like shadowboxing. Apparantly, it was a neccesary step, otherwise, would it exist?
    Anyway, that is my opinion and limited experience.
    Rik,

    In WCK, you should not wait until you learned Hung Jong to using techniques, you should learn how to apply them immediately. If you wait to learn the Hung Jong, you'd probably be 2-3 years. How can you learn to fight then? Hung Jong does not break any connection of doing forms and transition to fighting - it is still a form - its the Muk Yan Jong set without the Muk Yan Jong.

    I think you have confused the Da San Jong method of training with Hung Jong.

    Da San Jong is freely mixing the moves learned in WCK in a random freestyle manner, akin to shadow boxing, and can be done in the air or on the Jong.

    This is still not doing Mai Sang Jong or the alive stage of combat application of the Jong. And even then, that would only be a beginning - the world of combat is very big - strike, kick, throw/sweep, jointlock, groundfighting and weapons. You still have to get contact.

    Forms are handholding; they serve a use for developing in the beginning. They're good for categorizing, aids to memory, perhaps limited aerobic/anaerobic training, structure, position, and a lead in to possibilities.

  15. #30
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    ah, ok. That Makes alot of sense-logical steps and progressions.Thanks!
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

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