Let's do it with "style"

[Ray Pina]

That is not necessarily accurate and part of the problem.

It is true that Novell Bell fought a visiting Chinese fighter in a ring and won. I saw the footage. That was many years ago and against what I would judge to be a beginner amateur fighter.... who was giving up size. I don't believe the event was sanctioned. That level of fighter would not be competing today even at the amateur level. The competition has become that fierce.

Here is the point I'm making. I've seen Novell's demonstrations. He has knowledge. He moves skillfully. There's no doubt he can handle himself against the average man on the street.

But how does one circulate within the martial world for as many years as he and the other "masters" mentioned without wracking up a bunch of fights? I just fought Aug. 1. Have to pass on an Oct. 15 fight because I'm traveling for work but am fighting again in Nov.

There are levels in martial arts. There is never a finished product but there is a time when one has to go out and fight. These masters somehow have avoided that stage and transitioned from student to master without ever having gotten dirty... and that's their loss. Because no matter how many people they wow with their demonstrations, they lack knowledge that competing amateur fighters have.... about their bodies, mind, dealing with intensive training, overcoming bad situations, pain, injury, promotional drama. Going to fight another man who set a date to fight with you... and you both have three months to prepare to be your best for that day.

When you have done that enough, there's something about you. Renzo Gracie is so full of that stuff. I see it dripping off of high-level, successful fighters.

Honestly, I think it shameful that the word master is thrown around so easily and many are so easily drawn to the spotlight to put on a facade of something they are not.

They're not masters of combat because for the most part they haven't faced that challenge. So they're the masters of what?

[Ray Pina]

or


And again, opportunities to demonstrate and talk.... but why still no real fight footage? You can't get around it.

Want to know who a master is? Randy Couture. He lost to Brock Lesner but fought a beautiful first round controlling a man much larger and younger then himself. Even though he ultimately failed, he demonstrated real skill.

That's balls. Balls to go fight. And balls to put it on the line and possibly lose.

These guys would lose everything they've built with their mouths and friendly video sessions if they stepped up. So they don't. <-------------- (period)

[Frost]

These are good points made by Ray, we see all these demonstrations but virtually no fight footage from these masters, we don’t even see their students getting into a ring/cage. How can you be a master of a fighting art if you don’t have a proven fight record or have produced good fighters?

I understand not everyone wants to fight in the ring, but we rarely see any footage of these guys going hard in their own gyms, just applications and theory.

Anyone can demonstrate fast technique when they know what technique is being thrown and that nothing is following it up.

[goju]

well as ive told the people who say this go find these guys and offer to spar with them
then you will see if they are good
not every master cares about impressing a bunch of teenagers on a board who sit on their ass all day and talk **** about what style kicks what styles ass you know

[Ray Pina]

not every master cares about impressing a bunch of teenagers on a board who sit on their ass all day and talk **** about what style kicks what styles ass you know

You are naive.

How did Novell Bell get his reputation? He certainly didn't get it fighting anyone, certainly not anyone of note.

He got it not only promoting himself on the internet but intimidating people with his urban background. It was hard enough for a hippy-surfer like myself to find Kung Fu guys to fight with in NYC back in the day.... who would rush out to fight a 6-foot-something urban giant? .... no one from Kung Fu, that's for sure.

There have been opportunities for him to fight MMA guys though. But he passed. Plane and simple.

Yet the video demonstrations, the web sites, the instructional videos.... no shortage of them.

People want to believe in this "high level" mysterious unbeatable technique. It doesn't exist. Fighting is technical but its also a very tough, dirty thing. Anything can happen.

I have tons of video. Tons! All fighting. Some I win wonderfully. Some I lose. I'm not a master. I'm a kook. So much to learn.

I actually feel sorry for these guys because they painted themselves into a corner. They've made so much hype about themselves they can't go fight now. And now they'll never get a chance to learn the most valuable, real lessons of martial arts. And they'll have to live with that.

The other thing is you can't fool people who do what they do. Fighters know.

If you're training with fighters and doing well you'll be approached by coaches or promoters to fight --- because they are watching, they'll match you up with someone they think will be a good fight.

Fighters jump all over that. To test themselves. To see what they're made of. To rally their training partners. And for the fun.

Some of those guys pass. They move well. They have technique. But they lack "it." That thing that will let them set an appointment to fight a guy of same size and stature (this is important for Novell who has been known to bully these same internet kids).

Almost as a general rule, these guys start out being the guy in the gym always correcting the newbies, getting off on demonstrating their knowledge. Then they become teachers.

This is all fine. But be honest about where you've been and where you are.

[Rockwood]

I think there are people who can be "ok" or "good" at martial arts without going through the rigorous testing of ring fighting or street fighting.

But you'll never reach your full potential, and much of what you want to do will never blossom and come to life without that testing.

Fight sports isn't the only place to do this, but it's the safest, funnest and easiest way to do it.

Fighting for your life is another way, but that's crazy, dangerous and messy.

Ultimately, if you don't do one or the other, you'll never be great.

Personally, I spar with other low level, sub-amateur dweebs and geeks like myself, so I'll never even reach a medium level of skill in Chinese martial arts. I'm cool with that, I have a family, kids, mortgages, etc to deal with. So the added stress of truly attempting to be the best I can be is not an issue. Survival is the issue at the moment, keeping my wife happy and roof overhead.

My teachers gave that kind of thing up to test themselves in brutal and extreme ways, where people were seriously injured. Some even spent time in jail, or were injured, or had to grapple with mental and emotional issues because of the things that they did. They got the skill, but was it worth it? For them yes, for me no.

We are lucky to have the MMA and sport fighting boom in progress right now, it gives everyone a chance to spar skilled opponents safely. That's not to be taken for granted, just 20 years ago that was nearly impossible. This should lead to new heights for the Chinese martial arts.

-Jess O

PS Hi Ray, glad your quest to test yourself in the ring continues to lead you to great things.

[Lucas]

We are lucky to have the MMA and sport fighting boom in progress right now, it gives everyone a chance to spar skilled opponents safely. That's not to be taken for granted, just 20 years ago that was nearly impossible. This should lead to new heights for the Chinese martial arts.

very well said

[Ray Pina]

Good post, and nice to hear from you and I agree 100%.

For me, I have no allusions of grandeur. I highly doubt you'll see me on the UFC.

I've always studied and trained. I became bored and discouraged with TCM tournaments and then MMA became common.... too common to ignore. So I wanted to see if I could compete there amateur. And I couldn't so I trained harder, improved, learned, and then I could.

Now I'm going through the same steps professionally.

If I had a wife and kid and house I don't know if I would bother, especially if I was getting books published like some people we know (have them both on my shelf)

One does not have to go out to fight. But honestly, the biggest martial art lessons I've learned have come from it. It's not something someone can teach you, just things you learn. And its all kinds of things.

I do take issues though with men who have no gone the distance --- that alone requires something unteachable -- and pass themselves off as an authority on a subject they are really unfamiliar with. Complete bums win street fights everyday. That's no test of skill. Skill is beating someone good who is also trained and prepared to fight.

The truth is, it's mostly Kung Fu and exotic stylist that get away with that. Because styles like Judo and BJJ and MM are open and competitive. They seek out competition and comparison so its highly standardized. As a member you can go anywhere in the world and know where you fit in.

I'm not saying these guys aren't good. I'm not saying they are good. I'm saying its very unclear what's up with them but its clear they didn't see the need to compare their material with their day's standard. They're certainly not up to today's standard.

Who would advertise an untested, 20 year old computer? Better yet, who would buy it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good post, and nice to hear from you and I agree 100%.

For me, I have no allusions of grandeur. I highly doubt you'll see me on the UFC.

I've always studied and trained. I became bored and discouraged with TCM tournaments and then MMA became common.... too common to ignore. So I wanted to see if I could compete there amateur. And I couldn't so I trained harder, improved, learned, and then I could.

Now I'm going through the same steps professionally.

If I had a wife and kid and house I don't know if I would bother, especially if I was getting books published like some people we know (have them both on my shelf)

One does not have to go out to fight. But honestly, the biggest martial art lessons I've learned have come from it. It's not something someone can teach you, just things you learn. And its all kinds of things.

I do take issues though with men who have no gone the distance --- that alone requires something unteachable -- and pass themselves off as an authority on a subject they are really unfamiliar with. Complete bums win street fights everyday. That's no test of skill. Skill is beating someone good who is also trained and prepared to fight.

The truth is, it's mostly Kung Fu and exotic stylist that get away with that. Because styles like Judo and BJJ and MM are open and competitive. They seek out competition and comparison so its highly standardized. As a member you can go anywhere in the world and know where you fit in.

I'm not saying these guys aren't good. I'm not saying they are good. I'm saying its very unclear what's up with them but its clear they didn't see the need to compare their material with their day's standard. They're certainly not up to today's standard.

Who would advertise an untested, 20 year old computer? Better yet, who would buy it?

Great post Ray and may I say that you seem to have mellowed out a bit and I can see you becoming a very good MA, keep up the good work Bro.

[David Jamieson]

I agree that the way to fully understand what you are doing as a martial art you must test it either through amateur or professional competition or, street fight.

Having said that, I have to say that everyone's full and eventual potential is a pine box.

At 45 years, I'm just training. I still pressure test, but with no where near the vigour and vim that I did in my 20's and 30's

Having said that, get out there and get punched in the face you sissies!
You'll never know how not that bad it is until you try.

(provided you don't lose teeth or get anything broken in the process...cept maybe yer nose. lol )

[Lucas]

Having said that, get out there and get punched in the face you sissies!
You'll never know how not that bad it is until you try.

lol too true. i remember the first time i got rocked as a teenager by a boxer friend in a friendly match. i was like, wow thats not so bad...as i was getting up off the grass...

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol too true. i remember the first time i got rocked as a teenager by a boxer friend in a friendly match. i was like, wow thats not so bad...as i was getting up off the grass...

That;s not the worse bro, the worse is when some kid with a handful of years training pushes you to the limit even though you've been doing MA longer than he has been alive !!
The old MA adage that experience must fear the speed and strength of youth !!

[bawang]

hi there is a good chinese saying 花拳入门,误了一生
when you become diciple in a flower style, you whole life is wasted

[Lucas]

That;s not the worse bro, the worse is when some kid with a handful of years training pushes you to the limit even though you've been doing MA longer than he has been alive !!
The old MA adage that experience must fear the speed and strength of youth !!

lol. ive kind of felt that before. theres this kid i used to spar with, had increadably strong and fast kicks, one of those guys that only has one mode when sparring; destroy, maim, kill, decapitate. but then im only 30, so....

[Ray Pina]

I still hate that taste you get in the back of the throat, way up high, when you get punched in the nose. But nothing gets me madder than being thrown.

I'm guessing I got three more years before I have to start really fearing the youth.