Wing Chun sparring

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Wing Chun short range is as follows.

Attack the outer gates and inner gates by hitting your opponent in the face and throat with your vertical punches and gan sau.


Wing Chun Long Range is as follows.

Attack your opponents guards. Constantly punch them, Jum them, Pak them and Gan them as hard as you can. Constantly stomp his foot or knee. Kick his shins and knees. Continously stay away from his feet when he tries to kick your head off. If you can intercept the kick then step on the opposite knee. Everytime your opponents hand or foot is in reach hit it. Move around alot. Feint and stop being a target. Tire your opponent out so he makes an mistake. Constantly counter every long range technique he throws.

Do you have any pics or videos of you doing anything?

[Pacman]

yeah you are correct. it only makes sense to utilize your reach. maybe try learning some YKS WC...turning while punching is integral.

If I use longer range boxing moves, punches, footwork, etc. right from the starting gate (ie.- long range) - then I have a better chance of getting to the shorter wing chun ranges safely...

because then I'm attacking with all sorts of weaponry that doesn't exist within wing chun....

instead of using limited long range weaponry (that does exist within WC)...

and/or....

instead of just playing defense and waiting until he enters my space with an attack of his own...

because the best defense is not defense - it's offense.

[sihing]

Let's just say, if you are using facing concepts (having the ability to use two hands at the same time) while on the outside range (only kicking range), then you are mis-using the system. You trying to fight in a particular style, instead of using the training to aid you in combat, in other words your being unnatural in your actions. One of the reasons for chi sau is to train "contact" reflexes, what to do when contact is made, if there is no contact you just hit. Like Joy said, the dangerous range is when leg and hand contact can be made which is VT range.
If your sitting there waitin for your opponent to hit you then again you are mis-using the system, why are you still and not engaging in combat, why are you not taking his space and playing your game? Yes, we have to adapt to our opponent, but the same it true for them.

Gotta run...

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"If there is no contact you just hit...If your sitting there waiting for your opponent to hit you...why are you still and not engaging in combat, why are you not taking his space and playing your game?" (sihing/James)
.............................................

***JUST HIT WITH WHAT? If I'm outside of contact range, let's say a good 3' away from even being at bridge range, what do you suggest I hit him with - from the wing chun arsenal? I'm very curious?

Just walk in until I'm real close to bridge range, and then with my next step I can start hitting? Is that what you're saying?"

[sihing]

"If there is no contact you just hit...If your sitting there waiting for your opponent to hit you...why are you still and not engaging in combat, why are you not taking his space and playing your game?" (sihing/James)
.............................................

***JUST HIT WITH WHAT? If I'm outside of contact range, let's say a good 3' away from even being at bridge range, what do you suggest I hit him with - from the wing chun arsenal? I'm very curious?

Just walk in until I'm real close to bridge range, and then with my next step I can start hitting? Is that what you're saying?"

Firstly, my thinking is not about hitting someone with something from the "Wing Chun" aresnal. If your thinking this way your limiting yourself, and your trying to display a style. Like walking with a ball and chain attached to yourself, something will always be holding you back if that is what you are trying to do. Basically I don't see WC as a bunch of techniques, straight punch, this or that block or entry tech, but rather a training method to teaches you to hit harder than you normally would with a support system to back you when your hitting runs into problems(basic ideology). For me there is nothing stopping me from throwing a jab, side kick or any other so called long range strike, WC attributes kick in when contact is made. Application is anything that works in that situation. If someone enters the range where they can hit you, you should be hitting them as well, what happens from there no one knows, as no Martial Art can guarantee anything.

Range is only important if you are not familar with dealing that range. All one has to do if you are training in the Wing Chun method, is after awhile work with boxers, kickers, wrestlers to familarize yourself with what they are doing and learn how to enter on them, mostly a timing thing. Mis timing's will be made, but this is what the learning process is all about, the more mistakes you make, the better your skills will get, trial and error training. When doing this you are not really concerned with defeating them, but rather just learning from your interaction with them.

James

[Vajramusti]

With bik ma, timing and a sense of the line strike! Pak or lop if you need to!!

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm with you when you say this, James...

"For me there is nothing stopping me from throwing a jab, side kick or any other so called long range strike, WC attributes kick in when contact is made."

BUT WHEN YOU SAY THIS...

"All one has to do if you are training in the Wing Chun method, is after awhile work with boxers, kickers, wrestlers to familarize yourself with what they are doing and learn how to enter on them, mostly a timing thing..."

***YOU lose me. It's not just a "timing thing" to be able to enter (successfully) against a boxer, kick boxer, or wrestler - even after you take the time to "familiarize" yourself with what they're doing. You have to have the tools to make that "timing" work, and those tools come from a lot more than just "familiarity" with what they're doing - it requires taking much of what they're doing and getting good at it - so that you can actually use a significant amount of it as part of your game...

because what they're doing is not part of your wing chun game; which, as you correctly pointed out earlier in your post - "kicks in when contact is made".

Well almost correct, imo. Wing Chun "kicks in" just about at, but not necessarily dependent upon, CONTACT.

[duende]

I have to say I respectfully disagree with you here James. Range is always important... Be if pre-contact or contact. If you hit when it's the wrong time to hit, you very well could be offering a stronger bridge to your opponant then any strike you are dishing out.
The way I see it, many techniques like the WC chain punch fail because they are attempted at too far of a range or when your opponant still has some timing/leverage that has not been sufficiently dealt with.
While I agree with you that Chi Sau teaches reactions etc... in my experience it is more beneficial as a facing/leveraging tool to learn what body mechanics are the correct one's to deal with the bridging or lack of bridging at hand. IE... When it is time to use a hand gun as opposed to an AK47 or Cannon for example.
Best,

Alex

[Vajramusti]

Different terminologies and takes.
To each his own, it appears. joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

I love pak and lop, Joy, and use them all the time. But what I'm saying is that these are just some tools to use in a game that requires many tools.

[sihing]

Vic,

Maybe a misunderstanding on what I meant?? When training with the boxers, wrestlers and such, you are learning how apply your training, not really learning how to do what they are doing. The more you do this, the more comfortable you will be against those types of fighters. Make sense? If one chooses to learn those disiplines then fine, that is up to the individual, nothing wrong with it of course. But the question is, for an average person's needs regarding self defence, is cross learning needed? IMO no. If your competing yes, you will need to crosstrain in other arts to win your matches. But as others said, your core striking will come from WC, supplemented from boxing, MT, and whatever else you want to mix in.

Alex,

Range is important, maybe I used the wrong word. Let's replace it with "Concern", if you are training with all types of fighters, Range will not be as much of a concern for you since you are accustomed to the various ranges involved. Play with a boxer for 6mths staight then spar a wrestler and you will see and feel a difference. Control of range is important, that is why you don't want someone to get in "your" range and then travel out of it over and over again. Wing Chun, or rather someone training in WC can function in any range, as we are not robots, but function best while close in striking. Chi sau reactions IMO included the body mechanic/structures need to succeed while close in. If your on the outside, and using WC concept/applications you'll end up chasing hands, wasting time trying to deal with what the other guy is trying to hit you with. When he hits, you step in as well, dealing with the blow and attacking yourself (easier said then done, that is why practice and more practice is needed). Whether you counter is successful or not, you have eaten his space which is one of the WC strategies.

In the end, it doesn't matter what you look like when you fight, results are what matter, but doing things, like using facing concepts at longer ranges makes no sense to me, since it doesn't apply at that moment of the fight (when to use a hand gun vs. when to use a shot gun).


James

[-木叶-]

Firstly, my thinking is not about hitting someone with something from the "Wing Chun" aresnal. If your thinking this way your limiting yourself, and your trying to display a style. Like walking with a ball and chain attached to yourself, something will always be holding you back if that is what you are trying to do. Basically I don't see WC as a bunch of techniques, straight punch, this or that block or entry tech, but rather a training method to teaches you to hit harder than you normally would with a support system to back you when your hitting runs into problems(basic ideology). For me there is nothing stopping me from throwing a jab, side kick or any other so called long range strike, WC attributes kick in when contact is made. Application is anything that works in that situation. If someone enters the range where they can hit you, you should be hitting them as well, what happens from there no one knows, as no Martial Art can guarantee anything.

Range is only important if you are not familar with dealing that range. All one has to do if you are training in the Wing Chun method, is after awhile work with boxers, kickers, wrestlers to familarize yourself with what they are doing and learn how to enter on them, mostly a timing thing. Mis timing's will be made, but this is what the learning process is all about, the more mistakes you make, the better your skills will get, trial and error training. When doing this you are not really concerned with defeating them, but rather just learning from your interaction with them.

James

I agree, thanks for the insight.

[m1k3]

Very interesting so far, but what I don't understand is why you assume you will have an advantage once you have acheived your close in range? Care to trade in close with a Mike Tyson or a Joe Fraser? How about Randy Couture or Rashad Evens or any skilled Judo player? As I have said before your opponent has his say on how the game is played also.

[duende]

Very interesting so far, but what I don't understand is why you assume you will have an advantage once you have acheived your close in range? Care to trade in close with a Mike Tyson or a Joe Fraser? How about Randy Couture or Rashad Evens or any skilled Judo player? As I have said before your opponent has his say on how the game is played also.

This is precisely what I'm talking about. Range must be accompanied by leverage and energy awareness of the bridge at hand or space present.
If you get in close without the support of footwork, facing/positioning... Then most likely, you will not have a strong enough control of yourself, the bridge, or your opponant... And you will not have the time and space to nuetralize oncoming energy at the heaven, human, earth. Without even striking, your oponant can crash your techniques, bounce you, and send you flying.

James,
I'm not talking about chasing hands. By range, I'm talking about using precise measurement tools so that one can judge timing for bridging, engagement and occupying space.

By the sound of things, it seems many here may have recently adopted the "occupying space" term these days, but in HFY, when we refer to occupying space we mean "the strongest structure in space" as in "only one object can occupy one space at one time". This often refers to centerline domination, but it also comes in to play in bridging and leveraging upon engagement.

In HFY, we also have another saying... We don't chase hands, we chase space!

Good training to you all!

[chusauli]

In WCK we say, "Mo Juie Sao, Juie Shen!" (Don't chase the hands, chase the body.)