Wing Chun sparring

[Chop suey]

That's not sparring, its chi sau.

To respond to the original post about wing chun not resembling wing chun during an actual fight or sparring match:

If it doesnt resemble wing chun, then why? Are they violating the basic principles? Look for elbow position, balance, use of centerline etc etc. All of these things can and do work. And if you adhere to them, guess what? It looks like wing chun.

Oh and back to the post about mike tyson. Anyone average person would be crazy to fight. Now consider we're free to kick to groin, knee, strike to eyes/ throat. No boxing gloves, no ropes confining the ring. In high school I once witnessed a 100 lb girl, drop her bully football-player boyfriend to his knees with a swift kick to the gonads in front of the lockers between classes after he started getting ruff with her. She didn't know any martial arts. Consider that wing chun was designed for someone small and weak to be able to defeat someone much more powerful. It's true. Now in addtion to the deadly array of strikes, add in being able to sense your opponents direction of energy just by simply making contact with his arms, maybe only for a fraction of an instant . A skill you've refined from countless hours of chi sau. I could go on and on.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Please don't.

And while you're doing nothing, take a look at my signature. Oh, and yeah...you might want to stay away from that koolaid stand down at the corner for awhile.

[anerlich]

To respond to the original post about wing chun not resembling wing chun during an actual fight or sparring match:

If you read some posters on one of the other threads, wing chun apparently resembles what Lyoto Machida and Vitor Belfort do in the ring

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post Chop Suey. So true in the design of Wing chun...Excellent post I have not seen such a post in a long while...

That's not sparring, its chi sau.

To respond to the original post about wing chun not resembling wing chun during an actual fight or sparring match:

If it doesnt resemble wing chun, then why? Are they violating the basic principles? Look for elbow position, balance, use of centerline etc etc. All of these things can and do work. And if you adhere to them, guess what? It looks like wing chun.

Oh and back to the post about mike tyson. Anyone average person would be crazy to fight. Now consider we're free to kick to groin, knee, strike to eyes/ throat. No boxing gloves, no ropes confining the ring. In high school I once witnessed a 100 lb girl, drop her bully football-player boyfriend to his knees with a swift kick to the gonads in front of the lockers between classes after he started getting ruff with her. She didn't know any martial arts. Consider that wing chun was designed for someone small and weak to be able to defeat someone much more powerful. It's true. Now in addtion to the deadly array of strikes, add in being able to sense your opponents direction of energy just by simply making contact with his arms, maybe only for a fraction of an instant . A skill you've refined from countless hours of chi sau. I could go on and on.

[KenWingJitsu]

Fighting is fighting and should look like... fighting.

chi-sao should look like chi-sao.

When fighting, you 'may' 'occassionally' use something that resembles a WC move.
But in the end it had better resemble fighting unless you like looking like a WC man for 2 seconds before you get blitzed.

Punches work well in fights I hear.....

[Yoshiyahu]

Fighting is fighting and should look like... fighting.

chi-sao should look like chi-sao.

When fighting, you 'may' 'occassionally' use something that resembles a WC move.
But in the end it had better resemble fighting unless you like looking like a WC man for 2 seconds before you get blitzed.

Punches work well in fights I hear.....

Ha Ha...i think what people are saying is when you fight you also utilize the WC structure, footwork and techniques. Such as Bong Sau, Fook Sau and Tan Sau.

Some people forget their defenses when they fight and just try to strike one another continously with out any rhyme or reason!!!

[m1k3]

If you are worried about hand shapes and elbow position and how to step correctly then you are not fighting, you are training.

In the Marines we were taught there are 2 types of fights, those you win and those you don't. It doesn't matter how you win as long as you win.

[Yoshiyahu]

If you are worried about hand shapes and elbow position and how to step correctly then you are not fighting, you are training.

In the Marines we were taught there are 2 types of fights, those you win and those you don't. It doesn't matter how you win as long as you win.

Yea, But you wanna look good when you beating the crap out someone...You wanna give that signature Wing Chun beating to your foe.

If you beat them up looking good...Thats excellent!

[m1k3]

Yea, But you wanna look good when you beating the crap out someone...You wanna give that signature Wing Chun beating to your foe.

If you beat them up looking good...Thats excellent!

I remember the 1st time Ali fought Ken Norton. He was worried about looking good and ended up getting his jaw broken.

Good fighting should let you look good after the fight is over.

[kungfublow]

Fighting is fighting and should look like... fighting.

chi-sao should look like chi-sao.

When fighting, you 'may' 'occassionally' use something that resembles a WC move.
But in the end it had better resemble fighting unless you like looking like a WC man for 2 seconds before you get blitzed.

Punches work well in fights I hear.....

Maybe I'm way off base but I think this fighting is fighting thing is crap. If fighting is fighting then why train a martial art at all. I can learn to fight just by fighting. If you are learning techniques and structure and timing ect then they should show through when you fight. A MT guy looks like MT when he fights. Karate does too and so does boxing. Why not wing chun? IMHO Fighting is not fighting and your training should show through when you fight if it doesn't then you haven't trained right or your training is going out the window the second a resisting opponent is on you. If you are going to say Fighting is fighting and that's how everyone fights then Martial arts is useless and we should all get together and just fight with no techniques. Our bodies will know what to do I guess.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The wing chun "exception" is due to the fact that only certain aspects of wing chun actually work - when fighting. And it's a small percentage, probably less than half of what is covered in most (basically all?) wing chun systems. Because wing chun systems were devised several hundred years ago in China - where there basically was very-little-to-no exposure to other arts that are prominent today, ie.- western boxing, kickboxing, sambo, BJJ, Muay Thai, and of course MMA.

So what happens for the rest of the wing chun "fight"?

Wing chun starts looking like some form of boxing/kickboxing. In order to take up the slack within all natural, modern, (and especially well trained) approaches to fighting. Slack that exists because of the historical/cultural reasons just given.

Example: Wing Chun has historically done very well against Choy Li Fut.

And when was the last time someone using CLF won a fight in your neighborhood?

Get over it, chunners, and start modernizing your art, even if it means, gasp.. crosstraining.

[Yoshiyahu]

Maybe I'm way off base but I think this fighting is fighting thing is crap. If fighting is fighting then why train a martial art at all. I can learn to fight just by fighting. If you are learning techniques and structure and timing ect then they should show through when you fight. A MT guy looks like MT when he fights. Karate does too and so does boxing. Why not wing chun? IMHO Fighting is not fighting and your training should show through when you fight if it doesn't then you haven't trained right or your training is going out the window the second a resisting opponent is on you. If you are going to say Fighting is fighting and that's how everyone fights then Martial arts is useless and we should all get together and just fight with no techniques. Our bodies will know what to do I guess.

This is best post yet...great took the words out of my mouth if i could every verbalize things that concise.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe I'm way off base but I think this fighting is fighting thing is crap. If fighting is fighting then why train a martial art at all. I can learn to fight just by fighting. If you are learning techniques and structure and timing ect then they should show through when you fight. A MT guy looks like MT when he fights. Karate does too and so does boxing. Why not wing chun? IMHO Fighting is not fighting and your training should show through when you fight if it doesn't then you haven't trained right or your training is going out the window the second a resisting opponent is on you. If you are going to say Fighting is fighting and that's how everyone fights then Martial arts is useless and we should all get together and just fight with no techniques. Our bodies will know what to do I guess.

If you look back at one of my original posts you;ll see I mention they reason for different systems, to distinct advantage of bringing something different to the table.
The problem is it MUST be pressure tested.
People just don't do that.

[goju]

Maybe I'm way off base but I think this fighting is fighting thing is crap. If fighting is fighting then why train a martial art at all. I can learn to fight just by fighting. If you are learning techniques and structure and timing ect then they should show through when you fight. A MT guy looks like MT when he fights. Karate does too and so does boxing. Why not wing chun? IMHO Fighting is not fighting and your training should show through when you fight if it doesn't then you haven't trained right or your training is going out the window the second a resisting opponent is on you. If you are going to say Fighting is fighting and that's how everyone fights then Martial arts is useless and we should all get together and just fight with no techniques. Our bodies will know what to do I guess.

clap clap clap clap clap

[m1k3]

Maybe I'm way off base but I think this fighting is fighting thing is crap. If fighting is fighting then why train a martial art at all. I can learn to fight just by fighting. If you are learning techniques and structure and timing ect then they should show through when you fight. A MT guy looks like MT when he fights. Karate does too and so does boxing. Why not wing chun? IMHO Fighting is not fighting and your training should show through when you fight if it doesn't then you haven't trained right or your training is going out the window the second a resisting opponent is on you. If you are going to say Fighting is fighting and that's how everyone fights then Martial arts is useless and we should all get together and just fight with no techniques. Our bodies will know what to do I guess.

KFB, there are a couple of problems with this post. Fighting is fighting but not all fighting is good fighting. The reason we train is to fight well.

The problem with something looking like wing chun in a fight is what does my wing chun look like compared to how your wing chun looks.

Boxing is boxing but each boxer fights the way that suits him best. Ali, Foreman, Tyson, Lewis all looked different. The same with BJJ. Each player modifies the style to suit his build, weight, flexibility and strength.

So why should wing chun be different? The tools I pull from wing chun based on my age (old), speed (slow), size (big) and strength (strong) will look different than someone who is young, fast, medium sized and so-so strength wise.

I really get tired of the one size fit all approach to how my wing chun should look just like that of some small slightly built man from Hong Kong.