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Thread: Wing Chun sparring

  1. #16
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    There is no skill standard to post on youtube. Less that 10% of the youtube videos have any merit at all.

  2. #17
    My opinion styles aren't supposed to "look" like anything at all. You train them a certain way to learn some style tricks and structure and then you apply them. You refine it till it can save your life not so that it "looks" like wing chun.

    I'm throwing out two options here:
    1. Understand that styles aren't really supposed to look like the way they are trained in forms.

    2. For the people bad mouthing youtube and saying it's all bad wing chun: You're obviously skilled enough to bad mouth someone else's hard work. So instead of bad mouthing put up a video of yourself showing how someone as skilled as you spars with wing chun.

    I think that both my options won't be liked by most especially the supposed skilled people who "know" what wing chun is and how it should be applied.

    Sanjuro Ronin brought up a good point. You guys will put up a thousand forms and demo techniques but no sparring. Either you don't believe yourself to be good enough or you're afraid of being made fun of the way you are making fun of these others on youtube. Video did a good thing for kung fu. It made people look past all the BS that passes for skill.

    I know I'm starting to sound like knifefighter here but I don't want to be considered in the same ilk as him(no offense, knifefigher). I am not demanding a video from anyone really. I'm saying that if you're good enough to make fun of vids on youtube than you should be good enough to put up a good video to show everyone on youtube...or stop crap talking.

  3. #18
    Styles ARE supposed to look like styles. Boxing looks like the boxing (that's trained) when under pressure from a skilled resisting opponent; so does wrestling, Muay Thai, kickboxing, BJJ, karate, judo, sambo, TKD, etc.

    But when your style only begins to look like what you train once you're within 30 inches of your opponent - then getting there may entail your style looking like something else, ie.- boxing, kickboxing, etc...(as is often the case when wing chun sparring/fighting takes place)...

    If you're up against a skilled resisting opponent with a solid long range game - and with enough size so that you're not going to simply overwhelm him due to your superior size.

    And with the evolution of mma, even styles like "pure" wrestling, judo, BJJ, etc. will have the same longer range problem when up against a skilled striker.

  4. #19
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    I agree with Ultimatewingchun. The reason why you learn a particular style of MA is because you liked the look of it and you want to 'own' it so you can apply it. Yours may look slightly different to others because of your physique, preference, etc, but it should look fundamentally the same. Tell the JKD guys that they'll look nothing like Bruce Lee once they apply JKD moves in sparring or in a real bout and you've upset a lot of people

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    This thread is a perfect example of why you don't see the things you think you should see from WC in actual fighting and why the majority of people who train WC cannot use their techniques effectively.

    It has nothing to do with Utube or most WC people not learning "proper" WC (despite what some clueless "masters" will tell you).

    The fact is real fighting will look nothing like the way WC is "supposed" to look.
    Why is that? What then is the point of training all the techniques and the forms? Woking on getting your tan in the right place or your bong perfect. If all these things will not be used in the real fight. What then are the things you should see from Wing chun in a real fight?

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by kungfublow View Post
    Why is that? What then is the point of training all the techniques and the forms? Woking on getting your tan in the right place or your bong perfect. If all these things will not be used in the real fight. What then are the things you should see from Wing chun in a real fight?
    Watch people who are skilled at real fighting doing real fighting. They will be using the techniques that work.

    99.999% of techniques that work for real against resisting opponents are being used by those that regularly fight. These are the things you will see.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Watch people who are skilled at real fighting doing real fighting. They will be using the techniques that work.

    99.999% of techniques that work for real against resisting opponents are being used by those that regularly fight. These are the things you will see.
    While I agree with you I will say this:
    That happens because the most natural way to fight with all our tools is the "typical kickboxing" way, that said, I do think that, if one choose too, that by training WC in a full contact environment VS other systems ( not just VS other WC) that the "unique look" of WC MAY be able to be kept, if this training is done from the beginning.
    Now, you may ask "why bother" and its a valid point and I would reply that possessing a UNIQUE AND EFFECTIVE style of fighting leads to having a tactical advantage.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    While I agree with you I will say this:
    That happens because the most natural way to fight with all our tools is the "typical kickboxing" way, that said, I do think that, if one choose too, that by training WC in a full contact environment VS other systems ( not just VS other WC) that the "unique look" of WC MAY be able to be kept, if this training is done from the beginning.
    Now, you may ask "why bother" and its a valid point and I would reply that possessing a UNIQUE AND EFFECTIVE style of fighting leads to having a tactical advantage.

    I agree. Train WCK with emphasis on application, and you see it looks like the WCK you use.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    While I agree with you I will say this:
    That happens because the most natural way to fight with all our tools is the "typical kickboxing" way, that said, I do think that, if one choose too, that by training WC in a full contact environment VS other systems ( not just VS other WC) that the "unique look" of WC MAY be able to be kept, if this training is done from the beginning.
    Now, you may ask "why bother" and its a valid point and I would reply that possessing a UNIQUE AND EFFECTIVE style of fighting leads to having a tactical advantage.
    ***VERY carefully worded and well-thought-out post here from sanjuro.

    The uniqueness of wing chun MAY be visible, he tells us...and then follows by answering the question "why bother"? - (AFTER TELLING US THAT "WHY BOTHER"? IS INDEED A VALID QUESTION)....

    (the implication being that he's not sure that it will be worth the effort since the end result could still be that "purely visible" wing chun may not be that efficient)...

    but yet concludes by answering the question with this: IF you can make your very visible wing chun work, then you've really got something special because the very uniqueness of the style can give you a tactical advantage since very few people have seen it up close and personal...

    (Remember when Vitor Belfort destroyed a great fighter like Wanderlai Silva in about 5 seconds with a variation of the wing chun chain punch attack? Remember BJJ when it first burst upon the scene in 1993 at the first UFC and in the immediate years thereafter? When virtually no one had a clue as to what Royce Gracie was doing or how to defend against it?)...

    But I'm going to say this for the umpteenth time: wing chun's uniqueness basically begins and ends with the fight at 30 inches or less, and until then, successful wing chun against a truly skilled and resisting opponent is going to look like some variation of boxing/kickboxing.

    Btw, go back and watch the Belfort/Silva fight and you'll see that Vitor first rocked Wanderlai with a typical boxing-like rear cross...and then...he finished him off with a chain punch attack with multiple strikes.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 09-21-2009 at 12:19 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    ***VERY carefully worded and well-thought-out post here from sanjuro.
    The uniqueness of wing chun MAY be visible, he tells us...and then follows by answering the question "why bother"? - (AFTER TELLING US THAT "WHY BOTHER"? IS A VALID QUESTION)....

    (the implication being that he's not sure that it will be worth the effort since the end result could still be that "purely visible" wing chun may not be that efficient)...

    but yet concludes by answering the question with this: IF you can make your very visible wing chun work, then you've really got something special because the very uniqueness of the style can give you a tactical advantage since very few people have seen it up close and personal...

    (Remember when Vitor Belfort destroyed a great fighter like Wanderlai Silva in about 5 seconds with a variation of the wing chun chain punch attack? Remember BJJ when it first burst upon the scene in 1993 at the first UFC and in the immediate years thereafter? When virtually no one had a clue as to what Royce Gracie was doing or how to defend against it?)...

    But I'm going to say this for the umpteenth time: wing chun's uniqueness begins and ends with the fight at 30 inches or less, and until then, successful wing chun against a truly skilled and resisting opponent is going to look like some variation of boxing/kickboxing.
    LOL !
    Yes, it was carefully worded, thanks for picking up on that Victor !
    Look at Machida, his unique system is what is giving him an edge right now over his opponents.
    I recall the first time I sparred a Ba gau guy, the controlled sparring went in his favour, he was very hard to hit, but then he decided to try FC and there, his lack of expereicned showed and I took him out in less than 3 minutes, that said, IF I had NOT done a few ronds with him BEFORE, I probably would have had a heck of a time getting to him, he was just to different than what I had been/was exposed to.

    BTW, I agree with where WC should be used ie: In a phone booth.

  11. #26
    Couldn't agree more! (Well, forget the phonebooth )

    ...but yeah, when in close, and especially in a "street" atmosphere where there may not be much room to maneuver, wing chun can be very effective. That's the ultimate strengh (and uniqueness) that wing chun brings to the table.

    And it's strength is also it's ironic weakness: because even in the "street" (and especially in a "match")...there's no guarantee that the fight will start from very close - hence the need for modifications/adaptations from any range longer than about 30 inches or so, imo.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    But I'm going to say this for the umpteenth time: wing chun's uniqueness basically begins and ends with the fight at 30 inches or less, and until then, successful wing chun against a truly skilled and resisting opponent is going to look like some variation of boxing/kickboxing.
    Since I obviously have dissagreed with you on this point, I would be curious to know if everyone from TWC feels this same way or has come to this same conclusion? Phil?

    One of the reasons I ask is, by watching GM WC's clips working out with the boxer, it didn't look like boxing/kickboxing to me.

    Jonathan
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 09-21-2009 at 01:23 PM.

  13. #28
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    I would be curious to know if everyone from TWC feels this same way or has come to this same conclusion?
    I know several people with a strong TWC background who have fought kickboxing and/or MMA extensively, as opposed to (and for a couple of them, including) the 100+ "street fights" many WC people claim, and all of them found it necessary, or at least, extremely useful, to incorporate techniques from elsewhere to work well at long range.

    David Crook found his WC worked best when incorporated with CLF and Northern Sil Lum for long and medium range attacks and multidirectional defense. Victor and Sanjuro's points about confronting your opponent with an unfamiliar style are valid, if you can mix several such styles effectively you can be further advantaged. Difficult to do, maybe, but as he and several of his students, one of whom medalled in the police and fire olympics. have proved it is hardly impossible.

    Rick Spain based his kicking style on Bill Wallace's. He also incorporates boxing tactics and techniques, plus the later BJJ and MMA. It's not that his TWC on its own is deficient, it's that the additions turbocharge it.

    If you are ring fighting regularly, unless you are totally arrogant, or have some weird agenda of stylistic purity, you are going to hang out with your fellow competitors, swallow your pride and trade techniques and tactics and incorporate the stuff that works for you. The TWC system is meant to be a launching pad, not a straitjacket.

    One of the reasons I ask is, by watching GM WC's clips working out with the boxer, it didn't look like boxing/kickboxing to me.
    While William Cheung is a superb TWC technician and probably comes as close as anybody to stylistic purity under pressure, I think the phrase "working out" (as opposed to "fighting") is of pivotal importance.
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  14. #29
    My God, Andrew...every word of that post was spot on. I applaud you!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    I know several people with a strong TWC background who have fought kickboxing and/or MMA extensively, as opposed to (and for a couple of them, including) the 100+ "street fights" many WC people claim, and all of them found it necessary, or at least, extremely useful, to incorporate techniques from elsewhere to work well at long range.

    David Crook found his WC worked best when incorporated with CLF and Northern Sil Lum for long and medium range attacks and multidirectional defense. Victor and Sanjuro's points about confronting your opponent with an unfamiliar style are valid, if you can mix several such styles effectively you can be further advantaged. Difficult to do, maybe, but as he and several of his students, one of whom medalled in the police and fire olympics. have proved it is hardly impossible.

    Rick Spain based his kicking style on Bill Wallace's. He also incorporates boxing tactics and techniques, plus the later BJJ and MMA. It's not that his TWC on its own is deficient, it's that the additions turbocharge it.

    If you are ring fighting regularly, unless you are totally arrogant, or have some weird agenda of stylistic purity, you are going to hang out with your fellow competitors, swallow your pride and trade techniques and tactics and incorporate the stuff that works for you. The TWC system is meant to be a launching pad, not a straitjacket.



    While William Cheung is a superb TWC technician and probably comes as close as anybody to stylistic purity under pressure, I think the phrase "working out" (as opposed to "fighting") is of pivotal importance.
    Well said !

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