Wing Chun sparring

[Paul T England]

The way you have been trained will come out under pressure.....old school training would be pure style and thats how it would look....most people today don't train long or hard enough in a given style to make their movement look like the styles forms or mechnics. IMHO

[sanjuro_ronin]

The way you have been trained will come out under pressure.....old school training would be pure style and thats how it would look....most people today don't train long or hard enough in a given style to make their movement look like the styles forms or mechnics. IMHO

How long is long enough?
5 years? 9 years? 15 years?
If other systems are effective in less, what makes WC so inferior to them that it takes so long to learn it right?

[m1k3]

How long is long enough?
5 years? 9 years? 15 years?
If other systems are effective in less, what makes WC so inferior to them that it takes so long to learn it right?

Darn you and your use of logic! BTW, I thought Wing Chun was supposed to be easy to learn.

Fighting looks like fighting. UltimateWingChun, I disagree with your styles comment. Grappling looks like grappling no matter what the style, what makes them different is the rules they compete under. For example gi or no gi, subs or no subs. A hip throw looks the same in BJJ, Sambo, catch wrestling, free style wrestling, Greco wrestling or Judo. The only difference would be the wearing or not of a gi jacket. In other words, what handles are available to do the throw and in the case of Greco no legs used in the throw.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The way you have been trained will come out under pressure.....old school training would be pure style and thats how it would look....most people today don't train long or hard enough in a given style to make their movement look like the styles forms or mechnics. IMHO

I could smoke your average karate black belt in a full-contact sparring match in about 6 months because of the high pressure training that I went through. However, that type of match uses a strict set of techniques.

To fight in the street, you need knife defense, gun defense, empty hand defense against a stick or pole, takedown defense, basic grappling escapes, and escapes from basic holds (bear hugs, head locks, grabs, and so on). It takes about 1.5 to 2 years to develop those well enough to have an answer for anything.

This assumes about 2-3 hours of instruction per week and at least 3 hours of individual practice per week although I think that I probably did more on both counts.

[JPinAZ]

I know several people with a strong TWC background who have fought kickboxing and/or MMA extensively, as opposed to (and for a couple of them, including) the 100+ "street fights" many WC people claim, and all of them found it necessary, or at least, extremely useful, to incorporate techniques from elsewhere to work well at long range.

Thanks for the reply.
I'd agree that a lot of stuff 'works' at a long range. Same can be said for any range for that matter. My understanding of WCK is knowing what works most effectively and efficiently at the given range, facing, etc one is at (from a tools perspective).
Now, are you saying TWC does not have the necessary tools/concepts to operate from longer or pre-contact range and bridge into close range on its own? Why would they need these other things?
And, I'm not saying TWC can't do it, I've seen vids by both GM WC and Phil that make me think it does (And none of it looked like kickboxing to me as Vic advocates). I'm curious about why this issue with having to go to other sources to operate at long range? Or are talking personal preference or that they prefer to stay and fight out at that range and might need to incorporate other things because they are not intending to close the gap once the fight starts?

David Crook found his WC worked best when incorporated with CLF and Northern Sil Lum for long and medium range attacks and multidirectional defense. Victor and Sanjuro's points about confronting your opponent with an unfamiliar style are valid, if you can mix several such styles effectively you can be further advantaged. Difficult to do, maybe, but as he and several of his students, one of whom medalled in the police and fire olympics. have proved it is hardly impossible.

Rick Spain based his kicking style on Bill Wallace's. He also incorporates boxing tactics and techniques, plus the later BJJ and MMA. It's not that his TWC on its own is deficient, it's that the additions turbocharge it.

If you are ring fighting regularly, unless you are totally arrogant, or have some weird agenda of stylistic purity, you are going to hang out with your fellow competitors, swallow your pride and trade techniques and tactics and incorporate the stuff that works for you

IMO, WCK isn't a style. Sure, it has signature 'tools' that are somewhat unique looking to WCK, but thinking of WCK as a style is rather limiting. fwiw, I found it was WCK that turbocharged my overall fighting abilities, not the other way around - regardless what style I've done in the past. What turbo charged it? The concepts and principals, including the ideas of & efficiency & economy of motion.

Now, I agree, you should work out with as many different people from as many different fighting backgrounds as possible. And I see nothing wrong with using different things to get the job done as long as they are guided by principal. But I don't think you have to mix in what they are doing if what you are doing already works. It has nothing to do with pride, stylistic purity or agenda. It has to do with common sense.

WCK is about occupying your space with the strongest structure & maintaining your own CL and gravity while dominating your opponents’ gravity and taking away their structures. It’s about controlling their COM once the attack has been neutralized and then destroying what’s left of it. A WCK fighter shouldn’t ‘look like’ a kickboxer when fighting at what some call long range because some of what kickboxers go as stylists goes against WCK body structure methods and COG principals. Can I mix in their kicks and punches? I guess. But until I have dominated my opponents COG and structures and put my self into an advantageous position, they go against WCK principals. And once I have done that, do I really need long range kicks and punches?

While William Cheung is a superb TWC technician and probably comes as close as anybody to stylistic purity under pressure, I think the phrase "working out" (as opposed to "fighting") is of pivotal importance.

Why would anyone workout, spar or train differently than they would intend to fight? This sounds counterproductive.

[kungfublow]

How long is long enough?
5 years? 9 years? 15 years?
If other systems are effective in less, what makes WC so inferior to them that it takes so long to learn it right?

Maybe it just has more depth so it takes longer to grasp. If I can learn how to fight with another system in a matter of months maybe that's good. If your only goal is to be able to fight. Most likely you are going to use a couple of techniques that are easy to grasp and work consistantly with little effort or training. But now you are a good fighter that would be a one trick pony. If your goal is to get into something deeper and fighting is not the end all and be all of this then wouldn't a deeper system take much more time to learn and master and then apply. For me the longer the time taken to master the greater the reward. I could go out a learn how to throw a guy in a couple of weeks and it might work in every fight I ever have but really who cares I'm a one trick pony and that's all I can do. Sure it's effective but anything that comes so easy has no real pay off.

To me if it does take much longer to make Wing chun work I see that as a greater challenge with a greater reward. If the system is deeper then it should take longer to learn and master and then apply in a real fight situation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe it just has more depth so it takes longer to grasp. If I can learn how to fight with another system in a matter of months maybe that's good. If your only goal is to be able to fight. Most likely you are going to use a couple of techniques that are easy to grasp and work consistantly with little effort or training. But now you are a good fighter that would be a one trick pony. If your goal is to get into something deeper and fighting is not the end all and be all of this then wouldn't a deeper system take much more time to learn and master and then apply. For me the longer the time taken to master the greater the reward. I could go out a learn how to throw a guy in a couple of weeks and it might work in every fight I ever have but really who cares I'm a one trick pony and that's all I can do. Sure it's effective but anything that comes so easy has no real pay off.

To me if it does take much longer to make Wing chun work I see that as a greater challenge with a greater reward. If the system is deeper then it should take longer to learn and master and then apply in a real fight situation.

Well, you certainly are entitled to your view.
I disagree, but to each their own.
If a MA, any MA, can't be used by its practioners to protect themselves as quickly as possible then it is quite obviously, inferior to other MA that can do this.

[goju]

more than likely though your not going to be able to apply any martial art quickly its gonna take a while before you can actually use it to defend yourself

[sanjuro_ronin]

more than likely though your not going to be able to apply any martial art quickly its gonna take a while before you can actually use it to defend yourself

Why?
Most guys that do MT or Boxing or even MMA, can "fight" within months, judo guys can throw people in months, BJJ guys can take down and choke most people after a few months.

[Ng Mui]

Wing Chun is beautiful when doing drills and forms. Fighting is ugly, never has there been or ever will be a graceful fight.
You worry a lot if tan sao is perfect while practicing the form, not worry so much when tan is blocking a punch coming toward your head.
All that matters is did it work.

Winning is beautiful, losing is ugly.

[goju]

Why?
Most guys that do MT or Boxing or even MMA, can "fight" within months, judo guys can throw people in months, BJJ guys can take down and choke most people after a few months.

but to get to a high level of skill it will take a while
plus you also have to consider in the factors if the person picks things up quickly, is athletically gifted etc etc
for example i picked up taekwondo kicking techniques quickly because im naturally flexible and had good coordination from me taking dancing lessons with my ex fiancee before hand

[goju]

i dont agree with that a fight should look beautiful as leung sheum said
looks at cung les fights those are nothing short of beautiful

[sanjuro_ronin]

but to get to a high level of skill it will take a while
plus you also have to consider in the factors if the person picks things up quickly, is athletically gifted etc etc
for example i picked up taekwondo kicking techniques quickly because im naturally flexible and had good coordination from me taking dancing lessons with my ex fiancee before hand

No one is talking high level, protecting yourself on the street is not high level in any MA training, it is basic stuff.
High level is trained fighter VS trained fighter, that is not what I am talking about.

[goju]

No one is talking high level, protecting yourself on the street is not high level in any MA training, it is basic stuff.
High level is trained fighter VS trained fighter, that is not what I am talking about.

well if we are talking street fighting that can be just as bad
a lot of technique flys out the window once you get sucker punched

i think its unwise to assume a street attacker can be taken out easily the way the fight can be unpredicatable

[HumbleWCGuy]

If you are convinced that you can't apply basic martial arts after 6 months then you need to re-think what you are doing.

Can you fight on a low level but lack confidence?
Is your instructor poor?
Is this the wrong style for you?
Do you need to practice your technique more?
Do you need to incorporate some boxing style training because you lack power or hand-eye coordination?
Do you need to spar more often and different types of opponents?
Do you need to get into better shape?
Lift weights?
Run?
Plyometrics?