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Thread: Luohan Quan

  1. #346
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    I am learning stuff from you guys but when I first learnt changquan forms (back in early 1980's) I realized that they were 'reformatted but as I began to do competition, many of these forms were made longer by adding/incorporating/appending additional forms to meet the competition criteria.
    This re-formulation was usually done by some teachers who were good at this and they had the fortune of studying with some of the old teachers.

    Good or bad, I have stayed with the 2 forms I remember but I see little difference in the organization of the form. What I would like to see more is a functional display of what they can do instead of just repeating the form just to repeat and be unaware of its utility. That is my main problem and concern

  2. #347
    yet another 18 luohan quan!!!

    p.13 of this article reads
    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    the 18 forms of this system are:
    1.降龙(jiang/xiang long: descending/subdue dragon), 2.伏虎(fu hu: tame tiger), 3.拂袖(fu xiu: brushing sleeve??), 4.长眉(chang mei: long eyebrow), 5.地行(di xing: groundward), 6.穿云(chuan yun: through the clouds), 7.独臂(du bi: single-armed), 8.瘸腿(que tui: lame leg), 9.铁拐(tie guai: iron cane), 10.文(wen: gentle), 11.武(wu: martial), 12.痴呆(chi dai: imbecile), 13.疯魔(feng mo: mad devil), 14.傻(sha: foolish), 15.荼(tu: bitter), 16.醉(zui: drunken), 17.颠(dian: tumbling), 18.狂(kuang: raging).
    the short quanpus for 15 roads of these 18 were also previously copied from Shaolin.org official website to the thread by RenDaHai.)

    also, there's Liu Zhenhai's/Yongxin&Yanzhuang's 18 luohan quan and there's Zhu Tianxi&Degen's 18 luohan quan. this article, Liu, and Zhu, all claim monk Degen as the teacher! one monk and 3 different 18 luohan quans! what a mess!
    Last edited by SHemmati; 07-03-2016 at 01:42 AM.

  3. #348
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    Looks like the names of the 18 roads are the same as the names of the actual 18 Luohan themselves.

    "1.降龙(jiang/xiang long: descending/subdue dragon), 2.伏虎(fu hu: tame tiger), 3.拂袖(fu xiu: brushing sleeve??), 4.长眉(chang mei: long eyebrow), 5.地行(di xing: groundward), 6.穿云(chuan yun: through the clouds), 7.独臂(du bi: single-armed), 8.?腿(? tui: ? leg), 9.铁拐(tie guai: iron cane), 10.文(wen: gentle), 11.武(wu: martial), 12.痴呆(chi dai: imbecile), 13.疯魔(feng mo: mad devil), 14.傻(sha: foolish), 15.茶(?)(cha: tea??), 16.醉(zui: drunken), 17.颠(dian: ?), 18.狂(kuang: raging)."

    http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle29.htm

    With the example of the Luohans being saintly figures who were also martial artists, the monks named their unique brand of soft/hard boxing "Luohan Ch'uan." Originally, the style was composed of one set of loose techniques, the "18 Routines of the Lohan" (routines meaning "patterns"). During the next few hundred years, at least 18 forms were developed for this style. By
    the end of the Ming Dynasty, a long Luohan Ch'uan form developed that had 18 "lu", or roads, with three sections each, making 54 sections in total. These are the names of the original 18 Lohan (in Pinyin with a loose literal translation of their names):

    1. Xiang Long (Descending Dragon)
    2. Yi Duo (Move Much)
    3. Da Mo (Reach Touch -- also Mandarin name of Ch'an sect founder Bodhidharma)
    4. Mou Lian (Eye Link)
    5. Fu Hu (Ambush/Tame Tiger)
    6. Nan Kan (Difficult Endure)
    7. Dao Wu (Way Understand)
    8. Zhi Gong (Good Public Works)
    9. Bu Dai (Cloth Sack -- also name of Shaolin founder)
    10. Li Feng (Power Wind)
    11. Kai Xin (Joyous/Open Heart)
    12. Bu Qiu (Not Demanding)
    13. You Po (Excellent Old Woman)
    14. Liang Wu (Rafter Fighting -- also Liang's Way of Fighting)
    15. Fei Ren (Flying Vibration -- weapon)
    16. Jin Shi (Enter Lion)
    17. Jin Deng (Enter Lamp)
    18. Chang Mei (Long Eyebrow)
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 04-25-2013 at 09:31 PM.
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  4. #349
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    I can't get any downloads from any of your links, it keeps asking for money or log in info.
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  5. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    ...During the next few hundred years, at least 18 forms were developed for this style. By the end of the Ming Dynasty...
    The above article that demonstrates roads 1 and 2 also in its introduction (first page) dates laying the foundations of this 18 roads back to Jin, Yuan, and Ming Dynasties. it specially mentions Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng as important characters.
    judging by the different roads we have so far, they are much more different than having come out of the same creation principles. they instead, seem like collecting different materials from different sources and then modifying and sorting them out as the 18 different roads.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 04-26-2013 at 10:33 AM.

  6. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    The above article that demonstrates roads 1 and 2 also in its introduction (first page) dates laying the foundations of this 18 roads back to Jin, Yuan, and Ming Dynasties. it specially mentions Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng as important characters.
    judging by the different roads we have so far, they are much more different than having come out of the same creation principles. they instead, seem like collecting different materials from different sources and then modifying and sorting them out as the 18 different roads.
    Yeah, for example, what Shaolin now called Shaolin Fanzi Quan was always designated as one of the roads of the 18. And in Shandong where Fanzi Quan comes from, their basic intro set is called Shaolin Luohan Quan! ha.
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  7. #352
    this is the first 10 forms of the above-mentioned 18 luohan quan:

    少林十八路罗汉拳: 1~10路 (shaolin 18 luohan quan: forms 1~10)
    by: 释延统, 俗名郝建统 (monk Shi Yantong, secular name Hao Jiantong)


    form 2 is Dengfeng small luohan and form 3 is Dengfeng big luohan. as always, Dengfeng people got small and big luohan forms, mixed with irreldvant stuff, made up an 18 luohan quan! a sick practice, indeed.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 07-03-2016 at 01:48 AM.

  8. #353
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    if the original xiao and da louhan routines were first created in the Sung times, then this means that they were created (along with Sun Tzu Chang Quan and Tongbi Quan, etc) to be part of the examinations for testing if one was a real Shaolin monk or not. So, they were part of the series of routines that were develped and documented by Fuju (Not Fuhu, who was from the Yuan times).
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  9. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    if the original xiao and da louhan routines were first created in the Sung times, then this means that they were created (along with Sun Tzu Chang Quan and Tongbi Quan, etc) to be part of the examinations for testing if one was a real Shaolin monk or not. So, they were part of the series of routines that were develped and documented by Fuju (Not Fuhu, who was from the Yuan times).
    you meant 'Song Taizu' Chang Quan! yes. exactly, they mention head monk Fuju (福居和尚: fu ju he shang) as the compiler.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 06-01-2013 at 01:35 AM.

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    the second progress is about the Xiyuan Luohan 18 Shi (techniques), at page 256 of Liu Zhenhai&Wang Xigan's book. it's recognized as the technical base of the 1st road of the above 18-road Luohan quan, so that the form is a combination of these 18 techniques joined with transitional movements, and added by beginning and ending postures. now, after checking out 10 roads of the 18, as i see, in compilation of (at least the first 10 of) the 18 roads, the forms show a high tendency toward the technical contents and bodywork (shenfa) of this 1st road. so, we now know why it's 'Luohan 18 Shi/Shou,' because it has the 18 techniques that make the 1st road of the 18 Luohan quans, and are also spread all over most the other roads as well! so far, thus, we are somehow sure that these 18 techniques (not exactly in the form of the taolu in Liu's book, but at least the techniques themselves) are at least an early-Ming era material, as previously said by Sal.

    * just i've got a question. in it's description in Liu's book, it writes that this Luohan 18 Shou has been taught by 李侠 (根生): hero Li Gensheng, who is a famous modern times folk master, he was Shi Zhenxu's close friend; while Sal once said that his books mention this 18 shi to be from Li Sou. Sal, is it possible that, you have misread it and it's 李侠 (li xia), which means 'hero Li' and not Li Sou (李叟) in the books? anyway, it's still possible that these 18 shi come from Li Sou, Bai Yufeng, or Jue Yuan, they lived in the Yuan or early Ming eras, however.
    It's possible that I mis read it, the characters could have been blurry due to the printing. I think he once said that there were the Wu Xing in that routine, which would mean the routine is post Monk Jue Yuan, Bai Yufeng, et al. I just looked at it with a magnifying glass, and it says "Li Xia", correct. THANKS for that correction!
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 06-01-2013 at 06:43 AM.
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  11. #356

    Luohan ShiBa Shou, roads 1 and 8

    Luohan 18 Shou, road 1:

    as previously mentioned, Deyang's Luohan 18 Shou is the 1st road (at p.2 of the 2nd vol of the Encyclopedia). however, this was not justified, and besides, Deyang's and the Encyclopedia form were thought to have the postures in much different orders with respect to each other. here i show that not only they are the same, but that their postural orders are very closely the same:

    Deyang begins the form with the crossed palms at standing stance, then switches the palms (figs 2-3 of the Encyclopedia), then before continuing with stand and join palms near the shoulder (fig 4), Deyang, as a repetition, does the down-cut palm at side transitory step (T stance) and uppercut palm at bow step (figs 7-8, Deyang does the latter in bow step, but the Encyclopedia on horse), afterwards, he continues with join palms near the shoulder, down-cut palm at side transitory step, uppercutting palm at bow step, then, again, down-cutting palm at side transitory step and the uppercutting palm at bow step (figs 4-8), then he does two elbow strikes at bow step to right and left (figs 9-10), down-cutting palm in side transitory step (fig 11). instead of the turn and transition in figs 12, Deyang goes to the join arms at bow step (fig 13) directly. then he turns back, joins fists while pushing the elbow in bow step (fig 14), turns body and spreads the palms on-horse stance (fig 15, Encyclopedia doesn't spread the palms, but instead spreads the elbows), left bow or 4-6 step with palms in guard in front (fig 16). here Deyang does a strange postures, he thrusts right fist with the other fist near shoulder, which the Encyclopedia doesn't have. before ending with crossed palms and standing up (figs 17-18), Deyang thrusts elbow in bow step, while the Encyclopedia does the same after the crossed palms (fig 19).

    * throughout the form, except in fig 15, all the directions and left/right of Deyang's and Encyclopedia's form are the same, but the stepping methods are usually different. this difference in steppings in forms is usual among SongShan Shaolin lineages, but the Encyclopedia is unusually full of such different steppings. stepping means how the feet move to form a specific step/stance. it's usual in the Encyclopedia forms to form the same steps/stances with somehow different transitory moves of the feet. this, however, is not something bad with the Encyclopedia, but rather teaches the same form wit different transitions. if we consider that the same posture when done with different transitional movements can have totally different applications, then such differences in the Encyclopedia will seem as new materials we can learn from.


    Luohan 18 Shou, road 8:

    now, as another famous Luohan 18 Shou form, Dejian and others' Luohan 18 Shou (videos: 1 (at 26:38, with Wugulun lineage shenfa), 2 (at 26:13, with Wugulun lineage shenfa), 3 (with standard shenfa)) is the 8th road (at p.32 of the 2nd vol of the Encyclopedia).

    this time, besides the above-mentioned differences, there are differences such as left/right exchange, and even skipping some movements or performing them in a hidden way, etc, between the resources. so we must consider all the resources (Encyclopedia and the videos) together to identify what they do:
    the videos have the crossed palms followed by a few pushings of palms at the beginning, which the Encyclopedia doesn't show except for the 1st, 2nd, and 6th roads. after this, they continue with push both palms in bow step (fig 2), take two lift-leg steps spreading the arms (figs 3-4), then a short step and short-range push palm (fig 5), squat and pound the palm with fist (fig 6), turn to bow step and spread arms (fig 7), turn again and after taking a step (fig 8) twist the arms (fig 9) and squat while pushing palm downward (fig 10). instead of the steps and transitions in figs 7-9, videos no 2 and 3 do a simple turn to fig 10. after this, they turn (fig 11), squat and collect the hands in front of chest (fig 12), bow step and push one hand forward the other backward (fig 13), the videos here do 2 punches that the Encyclopedia doesn't have, then there's back palm strike in bow step (fig 14) followed by crouching down (fig 15, videos no 1 and 2, because of their shenfa style don't do a full crouch downard, but just lower their body slightly), there's turn and spread hands on horse stance, which the Encyclopedia doesn't show, then it's squat and collecting the hands (fig 16), spred arms standing on one leg (fig 17), followed by blocking left and right with palms in transitory step (xue bu) (figs 18-19), and the end. at the ending, the videos do luohan sleeps/contemplates posture, which is not a luohan 18 shou posture; they've got it from Luohan quan.

    _______
    * NOW consider this technical description of these Luohan 18 Shou forms:
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Something interesting RDH mentioned the other day. He suggested the Luohan Shiba Shou yilu (1 of 8) that Shi Deyang does and the LHSBS aka. Damo SBS that Shi Dejian and others do are different manifestations of the same thing.

    Looking closely at the techniques within, I agree. It may be difficult to see if you aren't familiar with one or the other, but they are the same thing.

    They start with switching cross hands to the front, Fuzi Gongshou (salute) then Baihu Xilian (white tiger washes face) , then Nili Bacong ("pulling scallions from the mud", aka. shushen). Toward the middle they have a 360 turn and 'brush' the thighs, Yema Fenzong ("wild horse parts mane"). There are other similarities throughout, following the same pattern.
    these show how much the technical contents and shenfa of these 1st and 8th roads are close together. i think we see the same among the rest of the 8 roads that are in the Encyclopedia, which clearly indicates they are of the same very system! each of these 8 roads has 18 postures, which makes it most likely that they are of the same 18-road 324 posture Luohan 18 Shou (18 roads, each road 18 postures) mentioned in the Encyclopedia.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 07-25-2013 at 01:46 PM.

  12. #357
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    Honestly, what I see in the version shown in those videos is the Xiaosihui (the Kanjia style of Nanyuan Tongbeiquan) mixed with Xiyuan Tongbeiquan. It looks like it may be a Xiyuan version of Xiaosihui.

    If Road 8 turned out to be the same as in those videos, I would just say both versions of the set are documented in the Encyclopedia. Look at Lianhuanquan and Lianhuaquan presented there for another example of that.

    i think we see the same among the rest of the 8 roads that are in the Encyclopedia, which clearly indicates they are of the same very system!
    If you ask me what I see, the first set (Xiaosihui) is Nanyuan Tongbeiquan technique. We know that. The 8th, if the same as in the videos, looks like a possible Xiyuan version of Xiaosihui. But the rest of the sets are different. They share much more in common with unique techniques of the 13 road Kanjiaquan, some overlap of which is seen in Renshou Tongbiquan that I know, both of which are likely to have developed out of older Tongbiquan. But these Tongbei and Tongbi are two different systems.

  13. #358
    So you guys have 26 pages breaking down all the different Shaolin Luohan sets in detail, but not one of you can help identify which ones the Chang family sets came from?

    I can't imagine that their Xiao and Da Luohan sets are all that different from the Shaolin versions as to be unidentifiable. Their third Luohan set (Qing Long Chu Hai Quan) is virtually identical to the versions still practiced around Shaolin.

  14. #359
    the lineages that have either of these 1st (video) or the 8th (video) roads, call it 'Xian Tian Luohan 18 Shou,' (notice the forms names in the videos). besides indicating that they think of this system as the ancient Luohan 18 Shou, this is a strong evidence that these 2 forms, though not being of the same eras, are very close and of the same origin. however, i'm suspicious that this 'Xian Tian' title is used for the whole system, not just these 2 roads.

    however, not only the 1st and 8th roads, if you compare every two roads of this system with each other, despite all the new movements and differences that are introduced road by road, there are overall fascinating similarities spread all over the system. Wugulun lineage body mechanics is vague, consider this video instead, it's clear:
    Luohan 18 Shou, road 8- with standard body mechanics
    besides the fascinating similarity, it's yet totally different from the 1st road.
    _______________

    * this is Shi Deqian's Luohan 18 Shou book, it is the same as the Encyclopedia's Luohan 18 Shou part, but with better drawings and the lyrics for all the forms:
    少林罗汉十八手 (德虔编着)

    * addition: the Tong Bi quan thread needs another update, about Nanyuan Da Tong Bi quan and its connection to the 1st road Luohan 18 Shou (aka Xiao Si Hui), as Nanyuan Kanjia Tong Bi quan. as seems, you have even newer information on Tong Bi/Bei quan?
    Last edited by SHemmati; 07-29-2013 at 03:54 PM.

  15. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    this is not only a problem with Chang Family style. when it comes to traditional kung fu, things get extremely complicated. even about Songshan Shaolin Luohan quan, after so many efforts, at most, only 20 percent of the things have become cleared up in this forum!
    Then do you know which Xiao and Da Luohan sets are the ones that were paired with the Qing Long Chu Hai Quan Luohan set?

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