Page 28 of 28 FirstFirst ... 18262728
Results 406 to 420 of 420

Thread: Luohan Quan

  1. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    is De Yangs what you call '1st road', holding the structural integrity of the Luohan hands from the Sui dynasty?
    no. luohan 18 hands has evolved over time. how much? we don't know.
    luohan 18 hands has been extensively reviewed in the Ming dynasty. they increased it into 18 forms. however, in the latter half of the Qing dynasty, Shaolin monks did a great attempt to purify Shaolin syllabus by cherry picking the bests and throwing away redundancy off the Shaolin system. out of several hundreds of barehand forms, they picked a hundred, and then just 18. this is when most those luohan 18 hands forms couldn't survive. Encyclopedia lists 8, but just one or a couple survived in the temple. we don't know what exactly they did, they just give us these as Shaolin luohan 18 hands.

    and whats the relation with this form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAdRmBS4C-A ?
    Deyang's is the 1st form of the Encyclopedia, and this is the 8th form, the same that is usually done by Dejian, Shi Yan Ao and others. this is actually a bigger frame of the 1st form. like a small & big pair.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 11-17-2020 at 02:02 AM.

  2. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    ... "Da Luohan" ... is really this 'Jin Tong Xiao Luohan'?
    don't get things complicated, it's simple. da luohan is in fact the jin tong xiao luohan. it's traditionally called this way.

  3. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    ...the modern abridged version of the original longer Da Luohan, which at this point, I'd almost pay to see it.
    ...
    Now, I just want to know the Original Da Luohan
    oh oh oh, stop, stop!
    there's originally 2 forms, small luohan and this jin tong xiao luohan, whatever you call it, big luohan or anything. it is not a modern, abridged, mumbled jumbled version of any supposed original longer form with several yi lu, er lu, san lu, etc., parts and so and so.

    this is simple, Shaolin forms are simple. as simple as small and big hong quan. all this complication and confusion comes from peasants around, all trying to come up with their own materials, so this craze results in making the 2nd, 3rd, up to even 13 forms of big hong quan, which if you compare, don't add anything to the original 1 form! this same has happened to luohan quan as well. just 2 simple forms, copied and copied and copied over and over again by the crazy folks who never saw an actual combat in whole their lives to build up their own martial arts, adding confusion over confusion.

    you remember, i said Degen taught at least 4 different versions of luohan quan to different people! this is more like a practiced joke!

  4. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    Working on digging up a Da Luohan translation for Shi De Yangs dvd as well
    i would recommend stay away from it, like the plague!
    throw that DVD into a trash bin.

    this version of da luohan (jin tong luohan), which is in Deqian's encyclopedia and is done by Deyang and many others, is a bad version. this has been taught in Dengfeng by hero Li (Li Gensheng) and others. usually you see the first 2 lus (same as Zhang Shijie and others) and everyone has a different 3rd lu for it. anyhow, it is actually empty of the original key luohan postures and doesn't even look like luohan quan. furthermore, as they always do, they've broken it into yi lu, er lu, to add a 3rd section (san lu). like these people are obsessed with yi lu, er lu, san lu, etc. you give them any form, they add a 3rd section to it! and may even increase it to 18 foolish forms!

    don't mistake this crooked form for original Shaolin luohan quan.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 11-19-2020 at 01:06 PM.

  5. #410
    notice that for jin tong xiao luohan there is 1 poplular video, that of Xingsen, from Liu Zhenhai's series.
    Dejun and Deci also do it, but their form has an additional (say 3rd) part at the end.
    i'll remove that part from their videos and reupload them again, to remove this confusion.

  6. #411
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    337
    thanks for clearing that up and adding to the understanding. the trust I have in Shi De Yang goes further than the dvds and history he gives in them. lol
    I have to admire your zeal about the all the roads and confusion and I wish I could talk to you personally to get all of my questions to you.
    You did clear up the 18 Luohan hands question. I've only learned two ways to practice it, the main one is like the video you posted up there by Shi Yan Ti, just with a different Shen fa, the other is pretty much the same, I have only seen one video of it by Shi Yan Lu a long time ago. Shi De Yangs version in his dvds still peaks my interest as to why he chose that particular frame to present.

    as far as Da Luohan, I've seen too many versions to settle on one. What I have learned to practice is so called JinTongXiaoLuoan, yet I learned it named Da Luohan. Its different from Da Luohan Shi De Cheng teaches, which is why I looked into the version Shi De Yang teaches, because they appeared similar. Then there is a video I saw with some one practicing what they call JinGang Quan/Da Luohan and they are wearing all white, and it what they play is much longer than any other frames I've seen of any road called "Big Arhat", in fact Im almost sure that video is some where in the early pages of this thread.
    I'll look for it.

    What is puzzling is all the confusion around Da Luohan, and Luohan boxing in general, when Luohan Quan is Shaolin's signature. Seems like its should be more comprehensive to identify which is which. Like Luohan Hu Shen Chui, I learn to practice named Nei Tong Bi Quan first. There's also frames of Gulun style Luohan chui, and JinGang Quan that are in the same area of study.

    From what I understand however, in terms of Songshan Shaolin Luohan Quan, beyond the books, dvds, and folk lore, when dealing with structure and application, Hong Boxing, Tong Bi boxing, Luohan Boxing, JinGang Boxing, even ZhaoYangQuan, and possibly Pao Quan, are under the same umbrella. Everything else it outside.

    When I learned what few frames I know, before youtube, and all the dvds, I also looked at Songshan Shaolin the same way, there was the 5 animals which is what I wanted to learn, tanglanq quan, etc taizu chang quan, of course chang hu xiyimen, qixing quan etc..... then theres the group I named first, which stood out and stood alone to me

    recently I spent a little over a month only practicing Luohan Quan and researching looking for links to these particular groups of forms,
    Im thankful for the guidance

    Amituofo
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
    Shaolin Meditator

  7. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    thanks for clearing that up and adding to the understanding.
    you're welcome. let's continue.

    the trust I have in Shi De Yang goes further than the dvds and history he gives in them.
    his info mostly comes from what taught in his lineage by his masters. when it comes to Shaolin, even the lineages could be wrong. takes great logic and research to find out, if possible at all.

    lol I have to admire your zeal about the all the roads and confusion and I wish I could talk to you personally to get all of my questions to you.
    confusion goes far and wide, much more than that. i hope i can take time and clear some flat, widespread misunderstandings/misconceptions in this forum.

    You did clear up the 18 Luohan hands question. I've only learned two ways to practice it, the main one is like the video you posted up there by Shi Yan Ti, just with a different Shen fa, the other is pretty much the same, I have only seen one video of it by Shi Yan Lu a long time ago.
    Dejian's, Yanti's, and Yanlu's forms are the same, the bigger one, just each of them performs it with a different shenfa. these Wugulun people usually screw shenfa so badly it goes beyond recognition!

    Shi De Yangs version in his dvds still peaks my interest as to why he chose that particular frame to present.
    it's not a version of the same, it's another form.
    he hasn't chosen, it's what taught in his lineage. of luohan 18 hands, Suxi's (Deyang's) lineage teach this one, also called xiao si hui or any name. in Wugulun lineage (Dejian and others) they have the bigger one. they're similar, however.

  8. #413

    da luohan ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    as far as Da Luohan, I've seen too many versions to settle on one.
    da luohan is just 1 identity. too many versions come from astray people messing around with the original or with other people so-called versions, adding confusion to confusion.

    What I have learned to practice is so called JinTongXiaoLuoan, yet I learned it named Da Luohan. Its different from Da Luohan Shi De Cheng teaches, which is why I looked into the version Shi De Yang teaches, because they appeared similar.
    well, as already said, the Dengfeng (wicked) version of da luohan (which as also said, is a non-luohan-ized version of jintongxiaoluohan), has 3 parts. Decheng shows 1 part. Deyang shows the 3 parts. Deqian also shows the 3 parts in the encyclopedia. Deyang's 3rd part is a bit shorter than Deqian's.

    Then there is a video I saw with some one practicing what they call JinGang Quan/Da Luohan and they are wearing all white, and it what they play is much longer than any other frames I've seen of any road called "Big Arhat", in fact Im almost sure that video is some where in the early pages of this thread.
    I'll look for it.
    that white-robe guy you say (his name's Zhang Shijie), shows 2 parts of Dengfeng da luohan. his version comes from Shi Degen and looks a bit nicer. Degen himself has a book which shows all 3 sections, with a brand new 3rd section.

  9. #414

    a note on Dengfeng's 3rd sectionssssss...

    we already talked and said much about Dengfeng people breaking and adding 3rd sections to forms, a few things should be noted here:

    1. such 3rd parts have been added not only to da luohan, but to big pao ang tong bi quan as well, in wicked attempts to make them 3 parts.

    2. not all people's 3rd sections are the same. though all people do the same about the first 2 sections of the forms (which are actually the original frame if the form), they show different 3rd sections.

    3. these 3rd sections have poor technical content. either for their daluohan, big pao, and big tong bi quan, they've added useless techniques, like they do an awkward 3 consecutive punches in them, they face each direction and do 3 stupid consecutive punches on just 1 leg (T stance)!!! couldn't have been worse!

    anyway, don't matter. these are not original Shaolin.

  10. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    What is puzzling is all the confusion around Da Luohan, and Luohan boxing in general, when Luohan Quan is Shaolin's signature. Seems like its should be more comprehensive to identify which is which. Like Luohan Hu Shen Chui, I learn to practice named Nei Tong Bi Quan first. There's also frames of Gulun style Luohan chui,...
    those are random fake names, it's just tong bi quan.
    those luohan forms, other than small and big, all come from the numerous 18-luohan styles made by all those peasant families. any family has made a random luohan quan for themselves. Degen had learned a big bag of these forms.
    Last edited by SHemmati; Yesterday at 11:05 PM.

  11. #416

    jingang quan?!!! ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    ...Then there is a video I saw with some one practicing what they call JinGang Quan
    ...There's also frames of Gulun style ...JinGang Quan...
    Shoalin doesn't have a jingang quan itself. the same here, these jingang quans are also random forms from random sources.

    there are several jingang quans:

    1. Deqian's encyclopedia also has a whole section on a jingang quan with 10 forms or so, he has a DVD on one of them. it's actually a random long-fist style brought by lay monk Sufa, who like Degen had an interest in collecting random forms from here and there and teach them as Shaolin. not related to Shaolin.

    2. the first jingang form you mentioned above, done by Zhang Shijie, it's 2nd form is done by Pan Shuangxi. it comes from Shi Degen, another monk who taught lots of unrelated forms. this a combination of Shaolin and Baji quan. has more forms, and they call it jingang baji quan. not related to Shaolin.

    3. Wugulun family are lay monks or folk people, which also have a long history of rebranding irrelevant forms as Shaolin. they have lots of materials that are not related to the temple. many of them are even recent made-ups. among these are several forms with the word jingang in the names, which could have come from any source.

    in Dengfeng, the villages around Shaolin, there are many jingang-named forms, the same way there are many random luohan-named forms. most, maybe all, are peasant made-ups. it looks a waste of time trying to take them all into consideration.
    Last edited by SHemmati; Yesterday at 01:46 AM.

  12. #417
    much for today,

    about the main styles, animal styles, etc., that you've mentioned, let's talk these later, maybe tomorrow.

  13. #418
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    337
    Got it, so by titlel of small and big
    this is classical Xiao Luohan:
    Shi De Yangs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F8XWcSTlSE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJhNa_CGx_E
    https://youtu.be/81eVFkvVrPU

    Shi De Yang seems to teach the same frame with different variations and shen fa.

    and for Da Luohan.....
    this is classical Da Luohan by Shi De Jun: https://youtu.be/qCguyDM1X1o

    Shi De Cheng's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmJXSJePWQs which is similar to Shi De Juns and the 1st part of a bigger frame. (if I'm reading correctly) and is taught in its entirety by Shi De Qian.

    Shi De Yang's: https://youtu.be/0F8XWcSTlSE which is a variation of Shi De Qian's full 3 sections.

    So in terms of Luohan Quan, what I have learned is just Xiao Luohan, and Da Luohan (the longer version of Shi De Jun's video) with the added 3rd section for Wushu I suppose?

    Then I'm not that far from home at all. What's starting to become more apparent is that, one would have to go to the source and study for a while to get solid information on the lineage of Luohan Quan. and still One has to talk to worthy sources because many variations are taught at the temple and in denfeng. So its a long learning journey.
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
    Shaolin Meditator

  14. #419
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    337

    Taolu structure and shen fa

    to clear some things up on my side, I always trust and respect the structural integrity of Shi De Yangs curriculum. and when I saw him, a lot of his movements reminded me of my first teacher, so he stood out to me as I understood his shen fa, transitional postures, steps etc....
    Shi De Cheng and Shi De Jian as well, as I have had experience with their students which proves their movements translate the core essence of the taolu they learned.
    and Shi De Jun to an extent, at least for taolu I can relate to like Da Luohan.

    Shi De Yangs structural integrity stands true, regardless of the story lines or gaps in dvd classes (of which I personally think are obscured purposely for the 'outside' audience) ,
    what counts with taolu is 1. do they work in practice? meaning will they build the CORRECT foundation and fluidity if trained repeatedly.... 2. do they work in application? if one attempts to extract and apply combat technique from Taolu, are they designed and TAUGHT correctly so that the combat information is intact and transmitted effectively to the student....

    when I started learning Shaolin wugong when I was in high school, my teachers were Vietnamese, and to this day, I dont know which monk they got the transmission from. I know of VoVo Danh who is a Vietamese Ch'an monk who lived in Shaolin in the 90's, (as far as I learned in terms of my lineage) , his student Yuan Deng and my Sifu Luan Deng (who I learned from). Unfortunately I was too young and novice to know to keep searching in the lineage and honestly I could care less back then I was just happy to learn. I had no clue about the monks in Songshan Shaolin specific lineage and Shen Fa. and all the names I came to learn later were only vague from russbo.com or KFTC magazine Shaolin specials.

    When I started training I was most interested in 5 animals, and Luohan Quan, however I was taught only wubu quan and xiao hong quan first, two years later I learned xiao luohan, luohan shiba shou tong bi quan, da hong quan, and that was it from my original teachers.
    my original teachers never taught qi xing quan or chang hu xinyi men, qi xing quan I learned first in TX from a friend, then again at my old school in Oakland.

    That was all in Dallas TX, from 2000 to 2003, where I went to High School, then I moved back to CA, stopped training for about 4 years, only working out, doing some kickboxing/sparring, stuff like that. when I got back to Shaolin, I had more knowledge about the Temple from researching, and I learned a couple more forms at my school in Oakland CA from 2007 to 2009, qi xing quan, chang hu xin yi men, da luohan, .... so the shen fa with my Luohan Quan is different my Xiao Luohan is more similar to Shi De Yang, with slight variation, Luohan Shibashou is exactly like Shi De Jian, and Shi Yan Ti when faster, my Da Luohan is entirely like Shi De Jun however I learned that in Oakland CA later.

    so essentially The Shen Fa I learned changes from frame to frame. Some frames are more like Shi De Yang and Shi De Cheng, others are like Shi De Jian however. Which is a big difference. I'd have to find my teachers to try and track the lineage at this point. the only link I can make sense of some what is VoVo Danh who I can place at Shaolin/Denfeng in the late 90s for a fact , who he learned from and why I learned both forms of Luohan Shibashou, which are totally different, I dont know. I imagine he learned from a few people. Its a little resolving to know that what I learned, without much guidance, is at least NEAR the correct curriculum of Songshan Luohan Quan however, and I really appreciate the guidance with the history. ....to this day I still have not learned tai zu chang quan, pao quan, fanzi quan, 5 animals, tanglang quan etc .... I still have some questions about other forms lol, of course.

    Amituofo
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
    Shaolin Meditator

  15. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    ...
    Shi DeCheng's is also the DengFeng version. DeCheng shows 1 part, Shi DeQi (YouTube) and Zhang Shijie show 2 parts, DeYang and encyclopedia show 3 parts. this is the bad version. you know this it by that it doesn't begin with the iconic "luohan salutes Buddha" posture.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •